12 v battery flat

[CPN]

2 hours ago, Biomecanoid said:

The made in CHINA was about the solar panel NOT the car

That wasn't clear in your OP...

[CPN]

1 hour ago, Biomecanoid said:

If your solar panel comes out of the factory not properly wired providing power to the wrong pins of the OBDII port it can fry things and it will be an expensive fix.

So as a retired Computer/Networking/Radio & Electronics Engineer (50+ years) with a lot of test equipment at my personal disposal, you don't think that I would check that out before I plugged it in?!

1 hour ago, Biomecanoid said:

It is better to leave it alone and only use it for connecting a OBDII Reader not charging.

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

1 hour ago, Biomecanoid said:

It is the same with Power Over Ethernet (POE) in ethernet cables if you provide power to the wrong pins you will fry the network card or a port on the switch.

Again, any engineer worth his salt and dabbling in those kinds of things at that level would check before he connected....

[Dala]

I ended up with the option of connecting the solar panel to the OBDII after contacting the solar panel supplier.  It cannot guarantee that the 1A current will be fine for cables that are connected to the OBDII port.

[Roy124]

Cyker, I read your link about pass through chargers.  Interesting, not least the name as I hadn't heard it before.  I am using 3 all as UPS devices.  One is for my router, another for the security cameras and one for my alarm system.  Two were specified for their 12v output though they have 5v too.  The other for a 5v output (not USB).  They do of course have 240v input and not a 5v USB input.

Just checked, all run cold; I suspect because their loads are low compared with the demands of a car. They have all been in use over a year and all provided standalone power when we had a mains interrupt.

However the point in your link is well made.

[preperationlaunch]

8 hours ago, Biomecanoid said:

Yes cars today are a network of small independent computers dedicated to a specific task talking to each other. Nothing new there. 

It does not mater if the input/output of diagnostics sit across various PANs (private area networks) or if you have 1 or 40 computes in the car. If your solar panel comes out of the factory not properly wired providing power to the wrong pins of the OBDII port it can fry things and it will be an expensive fix.

It is better to leave it alone and only use it for connecting a OBDII Reader not charging.

It is the same with Power Over Ethernet (POE) in ethernet cables if you provide power to the wrong pins you will fry the network card or a port on the switch.

You realise that car electrical systems are quite harsh environments? There are standards that specify exactly what has to be handled by them. See ISO 16750.

From what I can see publicly, CANbus protection requires being able to handle 24v for 60 seconds on all inputs to simulate a jump start with a 24v Battery and 28v reverse voltage for 60 seconds to simulate a backwards jump pack. This all applies to 12v systems. https://www.compel.ru/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/ISO-16750-22010E-.pdf

All the ECUs are designed with this in mind, with decent suppression circuitry. Even 20+ year old ECUs will elegantly detect short circuits and flag a fault code, rather than letting anything go pop. They can even tell you whether it's a short to 12v or ground.

Power-over-Ethernet is a standard designed to only use low-voltage, initiate a handshake process, then send the 48v down the lines. Passive PoE is an exception, and can risk toasting things, but that is indiscriminately sending relatively high current down pins not necessarily designed for it on the other end. Passive PoE is far more reliant on you being sensible.

 

[Knitswithbeer]

13 hours ago, Biomecanoid said:

* You should get a Battery/Alternator tester so you can test the battery yourself

* You should get a multimeter to test for parasitic drain

* You can also get a battery changer to charge the battery at home over night to make sure its properly and 100% charged so you can have a  "clean" start and then monitor you battery from there

* There are also battery meters that plug in the cigarette lighter and show you the voltage

Hi, I'm sure I could but as I've had this car only a couple of months, I don't see why I should have to.

I can sew but I don't buy an expensive dress to alter it.

Things seem OK for now; my stance is that I have a contract with the dealer. It is their responsibility to ensure my car does what it said on the tin when I bought it.

[baxuz]

13 hours ago, CPN said:

You are not taking into account the quiescent current drain of the car when it is "off" and parked up. Why else do you think that Toyota themselves were recommending during lockdown, that you should run the hybrids at least once a week for an hour at "Ready" in order to keep the 12v battery in reasonable health?

I know what they are suggesting. What I don't understand why it's considered acceptable that the current drain should be anything over 50mA for a car which is off and basically doing nothing. A 35Ah Battery should last at least 3 weeks without the car being driven.

If the car had active GPS, network connections, background processing, data logging and the likes it might make sense.

And it's even more ridiculous considering the li-ion Battery has a 763.7Wh capacity and it can't trickle charge the 12V Battery when the car is off. 

[Biomecanoid]

2 hours ago, Knitswithbeer said:

Hi, I'm sure I could but as I've had this car only a couple of months, I don't see why I should have to.

I can sew but I don't buy an expensive dress to alter it.

Things seem OK for now; my stance is that I have a contract with the dealer. It is their responsibility to ensure my car does what it said on the tin when I bought it.

You should bother to assess your car's condition so you are onto of the situation, fully aware of the problem and their potential solutions so when you go to your mechanic or dealership you know what the truth is and don't buy into their potential lies, stall tactics or do work on your car that is not needed.

[Biomecanoid]

10 hours ago, CPN said:

So as a retired Computer/Networking/Radio & Electronics Engineer (50+ years) with a lot of test equipment at my personal disposal, you don't think that I would check that out before I plugged it in?!

YOU would check but the majority of people will not check and plugin it in weather its bad or not  

 

10 hours ago, CPN said:

That is your opinion and you are entitled to it.

Again, any engineer worth his salt and dabbling in those kinds of things at that level would check before he connected....

An engineer would know better and double check before using a China made OBDII cable, but normal people will not so the general rule is don't mess with the OBDII port unless you know what you are doing 

[Biomecanoid]

3 hours ago, preperationlaunch said:

You realise that car electrical systems are quite harsh environments? There are standards that specify exactly what has to be handled by them. See ISO 16750.

From what I can see publicly, CANbus protection requires being able to handle 24v for 60 seconds on all inputs to simulate a jump start with a 24v battery and 28v reverse voltage for 60 seconds to simulate a backwards jump pack. This all applies to 12v systems. https://www.compel.ru/wordpress/wp-content/uploads/2017/05/ISO-16750-22010E-.pdf

All the ECUs are designed with this in mind, with decent suppression circuitry. Even 20+ year old ECUs will elegantly detect short circuits and flag a fault code, rather than letting anything go pop. They can even tell you whether it's a short to 12v or ground.

Power-over-Ethernet is a standard designed to only use low-voltage, initiate a handshake process, then send the 48v down the lines. Passive PoE is an exception, and can risk toasting things, but that is indiscriminately sending relatively high current down pins not necessarily designed for it on the other end. Passive PoE is far more reliant on you being sensible.

 

Well there is no reason to test the failsafe mechanisms of CANbus and OBDII port since there are alternatives ways to charge the Battery.

You can charge the Battery via the cigarette lighter for the cars that allow that or directly from the Battery terminals.

 

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, Biomecanoid said:

You should bother to assess your car's condition so you are onto of the situation, fully aware of the problem and their potential solutions so when you go to your mechanic or dealership you know what the truth is and don't buy into their potential lies, stall tactics or do work on your car that is not needed.

The more you can tell the garage the better directed their investigation.  In the case of my flat Battery, 3 times, I logged the Battery voltage over a number of days that the car was not used.  It narrowed down the options.

 

 

[preperationlaunch]

2 hours ago, Biomecanoid said:

Well there is no reason to test the failsafe mechanisms of CANbus and OBDII port since there are alternatives ways to charge the battery.

You can charge the battery via the cigarette lighter for the cars that allow that or directly from the battery terminals.

 

But, in the context of the Yaris Hybrid, the cigarette lighter is ignition switched, and the Battery is contained under the rear seat at least on the Mk3s. I'd be surprised if the Mk4s are any different.

As a result, for the average person, who doesn't want to start disassembling the car, then have to find some elegant way to route cables to the windscreen for any meaningful sun exposure, an OBD2 connector from a reputable manufacturer suddenly becomes a far more sensible option.

[RickyC]

Also on MK4 Yaris the Battery is under rear seat but there are special connectors on fuse box to connect a Battery charger without disassembling the car.  The connector is present also on the latest MK3

[Dala]

when parking on the street? impossible

that's why we solve solar charging here

a better solution is to plug in a 12V socket so that it is always energized when the car is switched off 

[preperationlaunch]

On 9/20/2021 at 7:00 AM, Dala said:

I ended up with the option of connecting the solar panel to the OBDII after contacting the solar panel supplier.  It cannot guarantee that the 1A current will be fine for cables that are connected to the OBDII port.

OBD2 ports have to be able to handle 4 amps minimum according to the specification.

[Dala]

OBDII is intended for data transmission.  Where did you find the specifications for 4 A?

[CPN]

On 9/17/2021 at 8:37 PM, CPN said:

The OBDII connector is never turned "off" in terms of 12V and ground. If yours is going really off, there is a problem with your car. If you are judging its on/off status by using an OBDII dongle, you can't. Most OBDII dongles go to sleep when they realise that the CANBUS has gone to sleep (i.e. car ignition is off) or detection of Pin 1 up/down.

The 12V battery in our Toyota Hybrids is meant to be charged low and slow. The solar panel in my pictures works perfectly for that.

Note that pin 16 and pin 4 are always connected.

 

24 minutes ago, Dala said:

OBDII is intended for data transmission.  Where did you find the specifications for 4 A?

If you look at my original pinout diagram, only 6 of the 16 pins are actually carrying data per the spec. Most of the others are "Manufacturer discretion" so to assert that it is only for data transmission is a bit wide of the mark! 

[Dala]

It is necessary to distinguish what are data and control lines and what is an electrical installation.

And what about the electric current and thermal load of the connected data cable?

photo OBD II is not Yaris - just as a presentation of a sample cable

[CPN]

6 minutes ago, Dala said:

It is necessary to distinguish what are data and control lines and what is an electrical installation

Did you bother to expand my message above? Thought not...

[Dala]

Of course yes

[preperationlaunch]

5 hours ago, Dala said:

OBDII is intended for data transmission.  Where did you find the specifications for 4 A?

OBD2 is also designed to be able to power scan tools that use it, hence Battery voltage on pin 16. https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/On-board_diagnostics

The current specification for the connector can be found in SAE J1962, which is the American standard, and equivalent to the ISO standard used elsewhere for OBD2. See the excerpt below.

Quote

Vehicle connector terminal 16 is designated Unswitched Vehicle Battery Positive and must be implemented in the vehicle connector. This terminal must be connected directly (i.e., unswitched) to the DC Positive of the vehicle's battery. This connection does not preclude the use of a fuse or other circuit protection elements. This circuit may be grouped with other similar circuits. This terminal must be able to supply a minimum of 4.0 A.

From the ISO standard document here: https://www.obdiicable.com/download/ISO 15031-3-2004.pdf

Quote

6.3.10 Vehicle connector contact 16
Contact 16 of the vehicle connector is designated to provide permanent positive voltage for the external test equipment, both for power and also as a reference for K-line communications. This connection should be protected by the use of a fuse or other circuit protection element. This circuit may be grouped with other circuits.
The following shall apply:
a) for the usage of Type A connectors according to Annex A, the nominal supply voltage at Contact 16 shall
be 12 V d.c. and the current supply supported shall be >= 4,0 A;
b) for the usage of Type B connectors according to Annex B, the nominal supply voltage at Contact 16 shall
be 24 V d.c. and the current supply supported shall be >= 2,0 A

 

[CPN]

2 hours ago, preperationlaunch said:

"Vehicle connector terminal 16 is designated Unswitched Vehicle Battery Positive and must be implemented in the vehicle connector. This terminal must be connected directly (i.e., unswitched) to the DC Positive of the vehicle's Battery. This connection does not preclude the use of a fuse or other circuit protection elements. This circuit may be grouped with other similar circuits. This terminal must be able to supply a minimum of 4.0 A."

 

Bingo! (...and thank you! I can stop beating my head against a wall now! 🤣)

[Dala]

Thanks to everyone, I hope they knew it in Toyota before the OBDII was involved 😄

[Cyker]

Raar! Zombie thread revival! *ahem*

I saw this on dashcamtalk forum and it reminded me of this thread!

It's a purpose-built Dashcam buffer Battery that charges off the 12v. Still quite pricey, but seems quite highly regarded among the people that have bought one on the forum!

https://www.power-core.co.uk/products/6200lfp.html

 

[Dala]

remains to be combined with the HK3 Hardwire Kit and the parking mode will be perfect 🙂