E10 petrol for hybrid engine, or not?

[Luke717]

I've been reading about the new E10 petrol that will be at petrol stations across the UK starting today https://www.gov.uk/government/news/fuelling-a-greener-future-e10-petrol-available-at-pumps-from-today. I'm happy to note that Toyota says nearly all of its cars including hybrids can run fine on this fuel, per the government website - https://check-vehicle-compatibility-e10-petrol.service.gov.uk/manufacturer/Toyota

I bought a Corolla 1.8 Excel HB in mid 2020. I fill up the tank about once a month depending on travel behaviour, a few times once every six weeks or so. I always fill it up with premium unleaded, usually Shell V-Power. My perception is that such fuel is better for the engine than regular unleaded. Given that I now buy about only a third as much fuel as I did before I owned a hybrid car, I'm okay with the price premium.

But I'm keen to do more with the environment in mind - one reason why I bought a hybrid. Here's my question. Given that E10 contains 10% biofuel and, according to the government, emits far less CO2, would it be a good idea to just switch to E10? Any downside?

[Gray86]

I think a tank of v-power is good once in a while for its cleaning properties, but on an Atkinson cycle naturally aspirated engine there is little to be gained in terms of performance or efficiency from using it - at least that was my view when comparing E5 vs E5. 

ive used pumps branded as E10 over the last couple of weeks and noticed no reduction in performance or fuel economy - assuming they have had E10 in them (there isn’t really any way of knowing). I’ll try v-power in the next few months just for the cleaning additives, but will see if anything else improves with it 

[FROSTYBALLS]

The labelling on fuel pumps is 'up to E10', so covers E5 as well, and fuel companies had to relabel pumps before the end of August.

As regards possible effects of E10, have a look at:

 

[50p]

just filled up with E10, will see if any noticeable difference!

[Luke717]

1 hour ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

The labelling on fuel pumps is 'up to E10', so covers E5 as well, and fuel companies had to relabel pumps before the end of August.

As regards possible effects of E10, have a look at:

 

That's a useful article, thanks for sharing it 👍

[Luke717]

@Gray86 @50p look forward to hearing about your experiences!

[FROSTYBALLS]

21 minutes ago, 50p said:

just filled up with E10, will see if any noticeable difference!

Supposedly from today (1st Sept) new supplies will be E10, but if there is E5 remaining in the fuel company's tanks, which is likely, it will take a few tank replenishments before the fuel supplied is actually just E10. Same with your car's petrol tank.

[50p]

18 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Supposedly from today (1st Sept) new supplies will be E10, but if there is E5 remaining in the fuel company's tanks, which is likely, it will take a few tank replenishments before the fuel supplied is actually just E10. Same with your car's petrol tank.

all the E5 pumps were 'out of order' where I filled up!

[FROSTYBALLS]

1 minute ago, 50p said:

all the E5 pumps were 'out of order' where I filled up!

Prior to today the tanks used for E10 would have had E5 in, and when supplies of E10 are delivered, the E10 will go into the tanks which previously had E5. So for a while there will be a mixture of E5 and E10 in the tanks. 

[TonyHSD]

I always can feel the difference between two fill ups from two different garages even with exactly the same type fuel 95 E5 , with some the engine works better than with the others. Last two tanks from Tesco 99 e5 and all good, consumption is the same but the car drives better, engine is  more responsive and quieter. May fill up next one with 95 E10 and see if I will notice  any difference. 

[Cyker]

The Auris must be more sensitive to fuel than my Mk4!

With my Mk1 D4D I could definitely tell a difference between Shell V-Power and my usual Sainsburys, and especially Esso diesel. The VP was noticeably smoother with a slight torque loss at lower RPM but much smoother running at high RPM and the engine felt more 'eager' to pick up/rev.

In my 1.33 Mk2 I literally couldn't tell any difference between V-Power or regular Sainsburys.

I put a full tank of V-Power in my Mk4 on Saturday (An eye-watering £44! Normal tank is about £36! The cost gap has definitely gone up!), but so far can't feel any difference either. I think if there are any differences they're too subtle to notice, esp. with the electric motor masking it.

Be interesting to see what it's like going from V-Power to E10; If there's any noticeable difference to be noticed, that should be the most... noticeable.

[TonyHSD]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

The Auris must be more sensitive to fuel than my Mk4!

With my Mk1 D4D I could definitely tell a difference between Shell V-Power and my usual Sainsburys, and especially Esso diesel. The VP was noticeably smoother with a slight torque loss at lower RPM but much smoother running at high RPM and the engine felt more 'eager' to pick up/rev.

In my 1.33 Mk2 I literally couldn't tell any difference between V-Power or regular Sainsburys.

I put a full tank of V-Power in my Mk4 on Saturday (An eye-watering £44! Normal tank is about £36! The cost gap has definitely gone up!), but so far can't feel any difference either. I think if there are any differences they're too subtle to notice, esp. with the electric motor masking it.

Be interesting to see what it's like going from V-Power to E10; If there's any noticeable difference to be noticed, that should be the most... noticeable.

It could be just me or the way I use the car but I always can sense the difference since I drive exclusively on motorways with poor quality fuel the car just doesn’t want to go up the speed unless I mash the accelerator and forced into middle of power range on the power counter but when with good fuel the car builds up speed easier and no need to go beyond eco zone, just gives me that feeling of more powerful car. Will try E10 from tomorrow onwards and see how it goes. 

[Luke717]

9 hours ago, Cyker said:

Be interesting to see what it's like going from V-Power to E10; If there's any noticeable difference to be noticed, that should be the most... noticeable.

Agree. I have a 240 miles round trip next week and plan to try out E10 after that.

[frizzbee30]

23 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

It could be just me or the way I use the car but I always can sense the difference since I drive exclusively on motorways with poor quality fuel the car just doesn’t want to go up the speed unless I mash the accelerator and forced into middle of power range on the power counter but when with good fuel the car builds up speed easier and no need to go beyond eco zone, just gives me that feeling of more powerful car. Will try E10 from tomorrow onwards and see how it goes. 

Absolutely,  having a relative who has worked in the fuel/pump business for over 30 yrs, supermarket fuel is best avoided (apparently it's usually cheap import and doesn't effectively produce the precise droplet size, required in modern engines)

I've also had some very nasty blocked jet issues (carb), on a couple of cars some years ago, with supermarket fuel.

I've used E10 today, on a low tank, and very little if any difference in mpg, and smooth as silk, as ever!

Not looked at the CO2/mile figures, which I hope are better!

My only issue is the appalling Biofuel/land issue, but thats another,  longstanding, argument  (my degree is an enviro based one).

[Catlover]

Day 2 of Supposed E10 fuel sales. I think it is too soon to be looking at fuel figures ie mpg.  How do you know that the fuel dispensed at the moment is E10. The E10 sticker means up to 10%, so at this moment the fuel could still be E5. For sure, some forecourt tanks somewhere could be more towards E10, depends if they have been refilled with E10 and how low the tank was when it was filled.

[Cyker]

Out of curiosity, anyone seen any price differences?

[Catlover]

To be honest, I not even been looking. I got 3/4 tank full, so I am in no rush. Interested to hear what others think, but like I said in my previous post I think it is probably too soon to be judging.

[TonyHSD]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

Out of curiosity, anyone seen any price differences?

Joe is right, too soon to judge. I had 50 miles done and can’t notice any difference between 99 E5 Tesco and 95 e10 bp, I will need to do few more miles, but the thing is that I also don’t look for a difference unless I felt the car straggling to gain speeds when pushed., perhaps we may still be filling up with E5 95 and only labels are different. 

[bewA]

I've noticed no difference on E10 and most of my recent refuels have been on it.  I don't have any quantitative figures tho as i tend to just drive the car and put fuel in it 😄

[AndrueC]

Two possible downsides:

* E10 does not contain as much energy so the car will perform slightly worse. If you compensate for this CO2 savings will not be as great.

* Growing human food to give it to vehicles seems wrong to me when so many people are going hungry. It will also increase pressure on land resources leading to more environmental harm.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol#Production

"Ethanol is produced both as a petrochemical, through the hydration of ethylene and, via biological processes, by fermenting sugars with yeast.^[89] Which process is more economical depends on prevailing prices of petroleum and grain feed stocks. In the 1970s most industrial ethanol in the United States was made as a petrochemical, but in the 1980s the United States introduced subsidies for corn-based ethanol and today it is almost all made from that source."

Some people think the benefits outweigh the disadvantages but I doubt it. I think that E10 is more about being seen to do something without actually having to do anything.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel#Environment

[Red_Corolla]

And lower energy density could well translate to lower mpg! It feels like we're going back towards the old days of 2,3&4 star!

It will be interesting to see some new comparisons of regular Vs 99 octane fuel once all the E5 has gone away. Super unleaded could make more sense now than ever!

[nielshm]

Price difference in Denmark is extreme. Right now it's 8% between E5 and E10. 

If you choose the 100 octane, it's even worse. It's more like 12%. No matter the positive effects, the extra cost can never be elliminated. 

 

[Red_Corolla]

3 minutes ago, nielshm said:

Price difference in Denmark is extreme. Right now it's 8% between E5 and E10. 

If you choose the 100 octane, it's even worse. It's more like 12%. No matter the positive effects, the extra cost can never be elliminated. 

 

It can.....you just need 12% better fuel economy! 😂

Is that possible? I don't know.....

[TonyHSD]

Done 170 miles last night on bp 95 E10 at price of £1.39 /1ltr  and there is a bit of difference in engine sound and performance under moderate acceleration in comparison with previously filled Tesco momentum 99 E5 price per litre £1.41 , it might slightly be faster with 99 but mpg on 95 went up a bit however I suspect different driving conditions has caused better mpg to be achieved. Will do some more driving and fill up again and will check consumption accordingly. The difference in performance is as usual, the higher octane petrol makes the engine quieter and the car feels more powerful and easier goes up to the speed plus when is switching  from electric to engine power the transition is somehow smoother without typical thud, I think the car likes the premium 99 more. ⛽️✅👍

[Auris2010]

Been using E10 Shell fuel save on my Corolla 2L, since it became available. I used to fill up with V power as well. Not much of a difference really in terms of performance. I only noticed  that im getting better MPG on E10 compared to Vpower. I used to get just between 48-55mpg on VP and now with E10 im averaging above 55- 60mpg.