Any thoughts on E10 fuel?!

[Al D]

Despite it not having compatibility issue on '11-'19 Yaris, have had an idle issue. Put Esso 99+ Super Unleaded E5 in and it's gone. Economy wasn't as good either.

[Cyker]

What fuel do you normally use? Also could just be a bad batch - I doubt you had any E10 this quickly; They've only just started rolling it out!

 

[Al D]

Had 2 tankfuls of Asda 95. Labelling been on there good while that it's E10. Will try again and see. Not used Morrisons Unleaded for 6 years after car I had lost major amount of power from standstill. Water cause. Flushed through with Shell Optimax 99. Several people had worse issues not long after with insurer picking up a £6k bill.

[FROSTYBALLS]

14 minutes ago, Al D said:

Labelling been on there good while that it's E10.

As I've said on other topics, Government required petrol companies to re-label petrol pumps with E10 labels before the end of August, which doesn't mean that the petrol sold before September (the introduction date for E10) was E10.

In any case, as E10 will be using the same fuel station tanks as the previous E5, the initial supplies will almost certainly will be a mixture of E5 and E10.

Also see:

 

[Cyker]

25 minutes ago, Al D said:

Had 2 tankfuls of Asda 95. Labelling been on there good while that it's E10. Will try again and see. Not used Morrisons Unleaded for 6 years after car I had lost major amount of power from standstill. Water cause. Flushed through with Shell Optimax 99. Several people had worse issues not long after with insurer picking up a £6k bill.

TBH if it's Asda, esp. if it was one of their un-manned/automated pumps, I'd lean toward your issue just being !Removed! fuel. We've had some issues with suspected contaminated fuel from them on a couple of occasions and just try to avoid them now.

I doubt they'd have already switched to E10 this quick anyway as it's only officially been deployed today!

Hmm, this does raise the question of petrol stations that don't get much use tho' - Gonna be wondering how long that E10 has been sitting in their tanks for!

[Al D]

E10 allegedly goes off after 3 months. Friend's Dad has identical Yaris to mine and it really doesn't go far at all. Advised him to use Super Unleaded in that.

[bathtub tom]

I've always given mine a couple of successive tanks of super unleaded each year. Since covid, my annual mileage has dropped to around 2-3K. I don't fancy E10 sitting in my tank unused for that long, so unless I'm doing a long journey, I'll keep using super unleaded all the time.

[TonyHSD]

Lucas Oil 40576 Safeguard Ethanol Fuel Conditioner-473ml https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08KY8Q1NJ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_B43SST9D3T4WBEH8AFW0
 

This thing might be useful for many people who does only occasional driving. 👍

[Al D]

Tried Texaco 95, not particularly busy fuel station don't believe and pumps still have E5 signage. Idle no better so back to Super Unleaded next time. Recommended with Ford and Suzuki to stop the same apparently.

[Guest]

I own a 1962 classic car and remove the Ethanol from the petrol it uses. Then add an Octane booster. Not something Greta would like but needs must!

The Yaris runs fine on E10 so far.

[bathtub tom]

5 hours ago, mrpj1 said:

I own a 1962 classic car and remove the Ethanol from the petrol it uses.

How do you remove the ethanol?

[Yugguy1970]

Wouldnt it be easier just to put super in it?

[Cyker]

6 hours ago, bathtub tom said:

How do you remove the ethanol?

The usual method is to put the E5/E10 in a suitable plastic tank with a drain/tap at the bottom, then mix in some water (Some people use food colouring to dye the water to make it easier to see), then let it settle over some days and eventually all the water will sink to the bottom, taking the ethanol with it.

As an aside, this is a good illustration of why a lot of people dislike ethanol-fuels, as that water will sit there at the bottom like that, and if the tank was made of metal it'd soon rust out the bottom, and the same with the float chamber in a carburettor.

Anyway, once it's all settled you open up the tap at the bottom to drain off the water-ethanol mix and tada - You're left with E0 petrol.

You HAVE to add octane booster or lead-replacement additive to this before use tho' as removing the ethanol drops the octane level to the 80's and will cause knock in most engines.

 

[bathtub tom]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

that water will sit there at the bottom like that, and if the tank was made of metal it'd soon rust out the bottom,

Don't you need oxygen to create rust and if there's a liquid barrier where does the O2 come from?

[MikeSh]

1 hour ago, bathtub tom said:

where does the O2 come from?

The O in H2O?

[Roy124]

The water surface absorbs oxygen.  As the liquid surface is a settled water/petrol where does it come from?

Quote

Rusting is an oxidation reaction. The iron reacts with water and oxygen to form hydrated iron (III) oxide, which we see as rust. Iron and steel rust when they come into contact with water and oxygen – both are needed for rusting to occur. In the experiment below, the nail does not rust when air (containing oxygen) or water is not present:

 

[MikeSh]

In sealed domestic heating systems filled with plain water there is usually corrosion producing a black sludge, which I believe is a different form of 'rust'. You also get the tops of radiators going cold due to filling with 'air' which is actually hydrogen - you can ignite it while bleeding the radiator.

So I assume there is an anaerobic reaction that occurs that splits the water to allow the formation of an iron oxide while releasing the hydrogen. I don't know whether those conditions can occur in a steel car fuel tank. (Not a problem with a plastic tank of course.)

[Cyker]

The way rust is formed is usually galvanic, i.e. via electron transfer, rather than the 'normal' sort of chemical reaction.

For instance, in pure water, things don't rust so fast due to the process not being the usual sort of chemical reaction - However, in salt water, the salt makes the water an electrolyte, which facilitates electron transfer and speeds up the 'reaction' considerably.

With fuel, there are enough minerals and whatnot that can dissolve into any 'clumps' of water to allow it to act as an electrolyte and steal electrons from the iron, freeing the H and leaving the O to form iron oxide.

 

[Rhymes with Paris]

No v power today at Shell station today here on any pump.

Put a tennersworth  of E 10 in for now , but not happy about it.

I will pay attention to ease of starting and smooth running while on this and report back.

I know it is supposed to be compatible with my t sport but I always have doubts where there is an "improvement"

[priusnoob]

On 9/1/2021 at 11:04 PM, TonyHSD said:

Lucas Oil 40576 Safeguard Ethanol Fuel Conditioner-473ml https://www.amazon.co.uk/dp/B08KY8Q1NJ/ref=cm_sw_r_cp_api_glt_fabc_B43SST9D3T4WBEH8AFW0
 

This thing might be useful for many people who does only occasional driving. 👍

Isn't super unleaded cheaper than that though? 

 

Why not just fill up say £20 of the tank instead of say all of it? 

[TonyHSD]

13 minutes ago, priusnoob said:

Isn't super unleaded cheaper than that though? 

 

Why not just fill up say £20 of the tank instead of say all of it? 

Well definitely, if you drive once in a while better fill up less amount each time you are going out, but you still need to start the car with whatever fuel had left in the tank from the previous use. E10 it might be an issue when left for really long time like in holiday cars , classic and sports cars that been used only occasionally. 

[Cyker]

That's a tricky one too - When I had a diesel I read advice that recommended always filling the tank to full, as that displaced any air and moisture from the tank, whereas doing a partial fill would leave a lot of potentially moist air in the tank which could condense on the exposed walls and drip into the tank (Diesel cars really don't like water getting to the high pressure injectors which is why they have water traps - I wonder how long before we start seeing those in petrol cars too? It's funny actually... have you noticed how more and more diesel tech seems to be making its way into petrol cars? First injectors, then EGRs, DPFs (As GPFs), dual-mass flywheels, maybe water traps now... what ever next?  )

 

[MikeSh]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

what ever next?

They'll need to be quick though ... The clock's ticking 🙂

[mrpj]

On 9/10/2021 at 3:19 PM, Yugguy1970 said:

Wouldnt it be easier just to put super in it?

Yes, but that still contains 5% plants. A 60 years old fuel system is not compatible. It degrades fuel hoses too. But Ethanol "friendly" hose may be substituted. The car is not used in winter so the fuel in the tank will attract moisture which will accumulate at the bottom of the steel fuel tank. I believe the plant based fuel "degrades" faster too. Therefore just sitting and settling for up to 6 months is not ideal.

As the method Cyker described, it is a bit of a pain doing it but it more or less does it itself. Full safety precautions, are of course, followed. Also I only need around 5-10 litres each time. Fill up a 25 litre Jerrycan at petrol station. The remaining fuel is then poured into my Yaris.

[mrpj]

On 9/10/2021 at 9:54 PM, Cyker said:

You HAVE to add octane booster or lead-replacement additive to this before use tho' as removing the ethanol drops the octane level to the 80's and will cause knock in most engines.

For some, yes. But it's easier to adjust the ignition timing to suit the lower octane number (old school). Although, I do sometimes chuck a bit of booster in to give sdome blisteringly fast acceleration!

I wold question that reduction. As far as I know it only drops a couple of points.