Anyone experienced a loss of bhp? 2.2/2.0 engines

[Infiniti]

Hey everyone!

I'm just wondering if anyone has experienced less bhp than they would expect from their 2.0/2.2 engines? I don't believe my Auris is producing anywhere near the 220 bhp it claims (With TDI Tuning box), I don't even think it's producing 180bhp with the tuning box.

I believe, purely from estimates that it may be around the 130bhp range. It accelerates and pulls almost identical to my friend's 140bhp Mondeo, and is schooled by another friends 170bhp MG ZR. Both of which with the tuning box, the SR180 should make a show of!

I don't have excessive weight in the car, the turbo feels like it behaves completely normally and my air filter, fuel filter and oil/ oil filter have all recently been changed. 

Has anyone had similar experiences, or have any pointers in what I should look into before diving into the expensive rabbit hole of potential causes?

 

Thank you!

[Infiniti]

To add a little more detail, I have just gone and done some 0-60 runs. 

I'm aware 0-60 in a turbo diesel isn't what is important, and it isn't what I use the car for, however it works as a good indicator of how the car behaves between all other speeds too.

The best time I could achieve, with warmed tyres is 9.1 seconds using the Race Timer app. I'm aware this isn't going to be as accurate as a dedicated device, but it's the best I've got! Race Timer does use 60mph, rather than 100kmh/ 62mph.

This is significantly slower (1.5s!!) than the achieved times stated here: https://accelerationtimes.com/models/toyota-auris-sr180 . And also slower than other reported times I have seen elsewhere on the forums.

To add insult to injury this is with the tuning box 😞

I really do hope someone can help!

[yossarian247]

Has the MAF sensor ever been cleaned or replaced? I understand that these can have a significant effect on performance as they age and go out of spec, not specifically on these engines but on turbo diesels generally. 

[Infiniti]

2 minutes ago, yossarian247 said:

Has the MAF sensor ever been cleaned or replaced? I understand that these can have a significant effect on performance as they age and go out of spec, not specifically on these engines but on turbo diesels generally. 

I'm unsure, I took it for a short drive earlier with the MAF disconnected to test its effects and it just put me straight into limp mode, so that test ended rather quickly. I assumed that if the MAF was at fault, reducing power that much would be flagged somewhere in the ECU as a reading fault?

Thank you!

[yossarian247]

A MAF sensor will rarely flag up a fault code unless they are basically totally dead, so it is quite possible for one to be hugely out of spec without any fault codes being stored. 

[Infiniti]

3 minutes ago, yossarian247 said:

A MAF sensor will rarely flag up a fault code unless they are basically totally dead, so it is quite possible for one to be hugely out of spec without any fault codes being stored. 

The only reason I hadn't properly considered a bad MAF is because it never has trouble starting, and has a very smooth idle and never stalls out. The only symptom of a dirty MAF is that it is under powered, which is what led me to believe the MAF is probably okay.

[yossarian247]

I must admit my experience with diesels tends to be more with Peugeot and VW rather than Toyota, but generally speaking a diesel engine will start and idle perfectly even with the MAF totally disconnected. Usually the only symptom of a bad MAF on a diesel is reduced performance, and sometimes poor fuel consumption. 

I'm quite surprised that your car ran so badly with the MAF disconnected, but that is perhaps a Toyota thing? I had a similar result once when trying a 1.6 Valvematic petrol engine with the MAF unplugged, but at the time I put that down to it being a petrol engine. 

[Cyker]

There's loads of things it could be; Need more symptoms to narrow it down. MAF is a common one if you drive in a city behind diesel busses all the time but if your locale is not too polluted I wouldn't have thought so.

Do you drive on long journeys a lot or is it mostly town driving? I ask because another common cause of performance loss is the DPF getting full as it creates a nasty exhaust restriction. Other things it could be are the injectors getting crudded up or the fuel filter.

One thing that might be worth doing is filling the car up with V-Power diesel or dumping some redex cleaner (There was a fuel system cleaner the D4D folk on here were singing praises of but I can't remember for the life of me what it's called... The name was just some letters and numbers which is why I can never remember it!) in the tank and going for a good long drive somewhere hilly; The idea is to get all the cleaning additives in the V-Power into the fuel system to decruddify the injectors and any plaque built up in the fuel lines, and also get the DPF nice and hot, and stay hot, so it can burn off any soot that's accumulated.

 

One last thing - peak horsepower is a rubbish metric; It just determines how fast you can go, but torque determines how fast you get to that speed. Case in point - My old Yaris D4D only had 74HP but I could easily out accelerate the 100HP Mk2 I had later in-gear, because that 100HP was at 6000rpm on the Mk2 but the 74HP was at 2000rpm for the D4D

[Infiniti]

22 minutes ago, yossarian247 said:

I must admit my experience with diesels tends to be more with Peugeot and VW rather than Toyota, but generally speaking a diesel engine will start and idle perfectly even with the MAF totally disconnected. Usually the only symptom of a bad MAF on a diesel is reduced performance, and sometimes poor fuel consumption. 

I'm quite surprised that your car ran so badly with the MAF disconnected, but that is perhaps a Toyota thing? I had a similar result once when trying a 1.6 Valvematic petrol engine with the MAF unplugged, but at the time I put that down to it being a petrol engine. 

I assume the ECU instantly puts it into limp mode with the MAF disconnected, I wasn't expecting it either as I went to pull off a roundabout expecting turbo boost, and nothing was there and RPM stuck to 2.5k. I think I might give the MAF a go, I have never seen anything in its history to say it has been changed and it has travelled 122k!

12 minutes ago, Cyker said:

There's loads of things it could be; Need more symptoms to narrow it down. MAF is a common one if you drive in a city behind diesel busses all the time but if your locale is not too polluted I wouldn't have thought so.

Do you drive on long journeys a lot or is it mostly town driving? I ask because another common cause of performance loss is the DPF getting full as it creates a nasty exhaust restriction. Other things it could be are the injectors getting crudded up or the fuel filter.

One thing that might be worth doing is filling the car up with V-Power diesel or dumping some redex cleaner (There was a fuel system cleaner the D4D folk on here were singing praises of but I can't remember for the life of me what it's called... The name was just some letters and numbers which is why I can never remember it!) in the tank and going for a good long drive somewhere hilly; The idea is to get all the cleaning additives in the V-Power into the fuel system to decruddify the injectors and any plaque built up in the fuel lines, and also get the DPF nice and hot, and stay hot, so it can burn off any soot that's accumulated.

 

One last thing - peak horsepower is a rubbish metric; It just determines how fast you can go, but torque determines how fast you get to that speed. Case in point - My old Yaris D4D only had 74HP but I could easily out accelerate the 100HP Mk2 I had later in-gear, because that 100HP was at 6000rpm on the Mk2 but the 74HP was at 2000rpm for the D4D

I'd love to provide more symptoms for you, however other than a lack of power before the turbo kicks in at around 1600rpm, the car doesn't behave weird at all. Power is progressive and feels completely "normal", other than it not having the oomph that it should have. I mainly drive on A roads, the car is typically travelling between 50-70mph, however the previous two owners did live in Coventry city.

The DPF is something I have considered, it has done 122k and at least 5 years of that life it has done city driving. The other reason I have considered the DPF is that the car really, really struggles over 90mph, on private roads. I don't expect it to be a rocket at those speeds, but for a 2.2 diesel that's meant to have 350 lb/ft of torque it is pretty disappointing, which a massive exhaust restriction would definitely cause!

I definitely know the DPF isn't blocked with soot, I recently took a trip back from the British Motor Show in Farnborough, and travelling at 70ish mph in 4th for around 40 miles nothing left the exhaust. However this obviously doesn't rule out potential ash blockage. The fuel filter has been changed twice in the last 12 months, when I first got it and around 6 weeks ago, before I took it on 1000 mile road trip. Injectors I admit I have never checked, apart from the 5th injector which was also changed about 6 weeks ago.

Every other tank I use Redex System cleaner, and I also use 2EHN every tank, a Cetane booster, so in theory the fuel is the "same" as V power. I also don't drive it hesitantly!

I believe the thing you may be talking about is BG244, I read about it yesterday and I definitely think I'm going to pick up a can of it!

I only used BHP as an indication due to them being inherently tied together, I also don't believe the 180 is making anywhere near 350 lb/ft of torque, as either way it gets out pulled by two cars which have significantly less torque than mine, one of which weighs considerably more!

 

Thank you both! 😄

[Cyker]

Yesss! BG244 is what I was thinking of! Thanks, it was really bugging me trying to remember what it was!  

It sounds like you have been driving the car pretty hard and not fallen into the trap a lot of diesel owners do, which is being too gentle with it, so I suspect the fuel system should be relatively clean.

Not sure what else it could be off the top of my head alas! If I think of something I'll post back but for now... not really sure  

I don't even know if it's normal TBH - I do recall SR180 owners being disappointed it didn't have the turbo 'kick' they were expecting; Most of the D4Ds have a very flat torque curve, which means you get a fairly strong but linear pull through the rev range (vs. e.g. my dad's old and very peaky diesel focus which was more like nothing nothing ALL THE BOOST RUN OUT OF REVS change gear)

 

[Infiniti]

2 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Yesss! BG244 is what I was thinking of! Thanks, it was really bugging me trying to remember what it was!  

It sounds like you have been driving the car pretty hard and not fallen into the trap a lot of diesel owners do, which is being too gentle with it, so I suspect the fuel system should be relatively clean.

Not sure what else it could be off the top of my head alas! If I think of something I'll post back but for now... not really sure  

I thought it might be! You're very welcome.

It should be, I definitely try and use the power that it does have! It genuinely feels like someone has chucked the 2.0 130bhp engine into the car instead of the 2.2, it's really, really weird!

I appreciate your input! Thank you 🙂

[yossarian247]

How long have you owned the car? Just wondering as you mention the previous owners used it for city driving. You may find that with longer runs and getting the engine properly hot the DPF, injectors, and EGR will begin to unclog themselves and performance will gradually improve. 

[Infiniti]

2 minutes ago, yossarian247 said:

Have long have you owned the car? Just wondering as you mention the previous owners used it for city driving. You may find that with longer runs and getting the engine properly hot the DPF, injectors, and EGR will begin to unclog themselves and performance will gradually improve. 

A year, and around 14,000 miles 

[Heidfirst]

I had switched over from BG244  to Archoil 6400D by the time that I traded in my last 2.2 Avensis https://www.powerenhancer.co.uk/archoil-ar6400-d-max-professional-diesel-engine-turbo-dpf-cat-cleaner-concentrate.html

& as I traded  the car in before I expected to I may still have some Archoil. Yours for postage if I can find it & you want it.

I also recommend atank of premium fuel ast least once in a while - it may not give any more power but I do believe that it helped keep things cleaner. Speaking of that have you checked to see if the EGR is sooted up?

[Infiniti]

10 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

I had switched over from BG244  to Archoil 6400D by the time that I traded in my last 2.2 Avensis https://www.powerenhancer.co.uk/archoil-ar6400-d-max-professional-diesel-engine-turbo-dpf-cat-cleaner-concentrate.html

& as I traded  the car in before I expected to I may still have some Archoil. Yours for postage if I can find it & you want it.

I also recommend atank of premium fuel ast least once in a while - it may not give any more power but I do believe that it helped keep things cleaner. Speaking of that have you checked to see if the EGR is sooted up?

Hey!

How much do you reckon is left? And how much would postage be? I'd definitely be interested in taking it off of your hands!

I'm checking the EGR tomorrow, I last cleaned it around 10k miles ago so it should be ready. I believe this may be slightly contributing to the problem, however the feel of the car hasn't changed over the last 10k miles, since I last cleaned it (Although may have actually got slightly better). Which made me believe it almost certainly isn't the main/ largest contributing cause. But I definitely may be wrong!

I will fill up with some premium the next time I need a refill, it's definitely worth a go!

Thank you!

[Heidfirst]

I'll need to a) find it 😛 b) check, but if you are lucky it's not impossible that there may be a full container

Postage will depend upon how much is left (& therefore how heavy) but I imagine £3-5 would cover it as long as you don't want it sent next day, signed for & insured ... 😜

Don't expect to see any effect from premium fuel (Shell V-power probably best imo) immediately as it will take a tank or 2 to initially clean things up & thereafter keep them clean.

[Infiniti]

4 minutes ago, Heidfirst said:

I'll need to a) find it 😛 b) check, but if you are lucky it's not impossible that there may be a full container

Postage will depend upon how much is left (& therefore how heavy) but I imagine £3-5 would cover it as long as you don't want it sent next day, signed for & insured ... 😜

Don't expect to see any effect from premium fuel  immediately as it will take a tank or 2 to initially clean things up & thereafter keep them clean.

I'll definitely have it! And okay, thank you!

[Phil_1985]

I can't offer a solution sorry but I agree when you say something isn't right. I agree because when I had my 180 with a tuning box on, @ 50mph I was able to pull away (slowwwwy) from an FN2 (2008 era) Civic Type R before it eventuallyyyyyyy caught up and crept past me. 

[Infiniti]

23 minutes ago, Phil_1985 said:

I can't offer a solution sorry but I agree when you say something isn't right. I agree because when I had my 180 with a tuning box on, @ 50mph I was able to pull away (slowwwwy) from an FN2 (2008 era) Civic Type R before it eventuallyyyyyyy caught up and crept past me. 

I took it to a mechanic I know, he recommended a couple things to help free up the horses a little more. 
The main recommendations were to vent the rocker valve cover to atmosphere, get an engine carbon clean (Happening tomorrow). There were a couple other recommendations, however these were to benefit more from the power when it has been restored! 
Mine definitely wouldn’t be capable of passing an FN2, hopefully soon it will be!

[Stivino]

Just now, Infiniti said:

vent the rocker valve cover to atmosphere,

I don't think that's legal.  It's certainly not good advice.

[Infiniti]

9 hours ago, Stivino said:

I don't think that's legal.  It's certainly not good advice.

It’s a very common thing to do, whether that be via a catch can or a filter. As far as I have researched it’s completely legal, and very common when gaskets begin to leak slightly. As both prevent recirculating oil and fuel entering the intake system.

[Infiniti]

9 hours ago, Stivino said:

I don't think that's legal.  It's certainly not good advice.

I’ll correct myself, it is illegal. Thank you for drawing my attention to it!