PHEV Remote Aircon... which battery is used when?

[philip42h]

6 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

That's good to know about the jump start terminals under the bonnet. Whereabouts is that since the powered rear door isn't going to open if the battery is dead?

And when you trickle charge it this route do you have the bonnet up or can you close it if you route the cables somehow?

I'm a bit of a freak - I keep my car in a garage so when I put it on charge I leave the bonnet up! But you probably lower the bonnet or even route cables out through the bottom.

The jump start terminal is in the fuse box, towards the back and on the right hand side of the engine bay (looking from the front). It's described in the manual ... 😉

[Nick72]

2 minutes ago, PeteB said:

Press the lock button a second time within 5 seconds.  Also works with keyless locking; touch the line on the door handle to lock it, second touch within 5 seconds to deadlock.

I had no idea! Thank you. I'll dead lock it. Already now put my fob in a Faraday cage box. Had someone use the relay trick to break into my Merc a couple of years ago and then into my wife's mini 5 weeks back.

[Nick72]

Just now, philip42h said:

I'm a bit of a freak - I keep my car in a garage so when I put it on charge I leave the bonnet up! But you probably lower the bonnet or even route cables out through the bottom.

The jump start terminal is in the fuse box, towards the back and on the right hand side of the engine bay (looking from the front). It's described in the manual ... 😉

Cheers Philip. I'll take a look this weekend so I know where it is and will probably photograph it, annotate it etc! 😉

I probably ought to read the manual. I've read sections already but there are two manuals of 600 pages. It is the complete opposite of Peugeot. They told us nothing.

I turned our garage into an office and seperate utility room when we moved in here about 6 months before COVID kicked off. All DIY stuff. But when the wife said, why have you built yourself a massive 3 x 1m x 2 inch solid oak desk and a massive bookcase from scaffold boards, I said you never know we might all be working from home one day! Low and behold we soon were! No word of a lie. No Nostradamus... I just wanted an office 😂

I honestly dont think the car would have fit in what was the garage any way.

[PeteB]

11 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

I had no idea! Thank you. I'll dead lock it. Already now put my fob in a faraday cage box. Had someone use the relay trick to break into my Merc a couple of years ago and then into my wife's mini 5 weeks back.

Recent Toyota key fobs go to sleep if not moved for a while to reduce this risk, but there's no harm using a Faraday box/pouch as the key could wake up if moved or knocked leaving a window of opportunity.

My car is too old to have this feature so I also put the key in "Battery saver mode" by holding the lock button in and pressing the unlock button twice within a couple of seconds. Two double flashes of the red light confirm it's worked.

It's also worth protecting the spare key just in case.

[Nick72]

7 minutes ago, PeteB said:

Recent Toyota key fobs go to sleep if not moved for a while to reduce this risk, but there's no harm using a Faraday box/pouch as the key could wake up if moved or knocked leaving a window of opportunity.

My car is too old to have this feature so I also put the key in "battery saver mode" by holding the lock button in and pressing the unlock button twice within a couple of seconds. Two double flashes of the red light confirm it's worked.

It's also worth protecting the spare key just in case.

Didn't know this. Awesome cheers Pete.

[ernieb]

1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

Thanks Ernie. No garage or convenient mains connector so that sounds like the booster route for me. So do you just connect the booster in parallel then start the car (ready mode)? Then presumably the car begins charging the little battery from the big battery?

I think the terminals that the manual indicate under the bonnet are the best place, page 540.

[Thermal]

4 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Can someone recommend a good jump starter?

 

Google for "NOCO GB40"

 

4 hours ago, Nick72 said:

...and can point me to the front fuse box jump start terminals?

Open the fuse box under the hood and pull up on the red safety cap:  Voilá, the start-up terminal.

 

Previous winter, after a couple of very cold days, my RAV4 refused to Power-on.

After 5 failed power on attempts, I opened the hood, pulled the fuse box lid and the safety cap and measured the Battery voltage with a multimeter. I measured 11.8 Volt only, after 4 days in the cold (-8 degrees C).

 

Knowing this Hybrid weakness thing, I was well prepared and used my NOCO GB40. The RAV Powered on instantly.

After that, the GB40 also started my brother in law's big Toyota Landcruiser diesel after 3 cranks!

Warning, for those who didn't read the RAV4's handbook on this subject: NEVER try to use starter cables on a Hybrid to help jump-start a "traditional" gasoline or diesel car from this fuse box terminal. You may well burn out your entire fuse box and the cable to the RAV4's 12V Battery in the back, or worse.

The tiny RAV's 12V Battery CANNOT start another car with a starter motor, the way we did since cars exist.

 

Why is a Hybrid car so picky about its 12V power supply?

Simple, the car "knows" that you have an electric "bomb" under your back seat,only millimeters away from the gasoline tank. That can do great harm to yourself and your passengers and could destroy the car in minutes if something would go wrong. Therefore many safety features and rules are implemented in the car's firmware. One of those rules may read: "if low voltage or short circuit, display and log an error and shutdown". Unfortunately in this case the car isn't even ON yet, so no errors can be displayed and logged. 😞

 

Now in case the battery is very low or "flat", you cannot even open the car. The Remote sends a signal to the doors-controller, which is in the 12V circuit, and ... nothing happens. That's where the emergency key comes to help to open (only) the driver's door. Get in, open the hood, pull the safety cap under the fuse box lid, connect your Starter booster and you're good to go. That is, if you have one! If you have one and stored it in the boot, you're in f*#$.. trouble.

Reading some questions in this topic, it's obvious that not every new RAV4 owner took the time to read at least the safety- and the "What to do if ..." chapters in the handbook.

Highly recommended, because some things in a RAV4 Hybrid are not so obvious and can become very costly if you are not aware of them.

BTW a booster costs only ~ €70 and can help you in a predicament situation.

Compare it with a spare wheel that everybody does consider a necessity. 😒

Sorry for the long post, hope this does explain some mysteries for some, drive safely and enjoy this very nice car!

[ernieb]

NOCO GB40 is around £95 in the UK there are plenty of alternatives but often it's a case of buy cheap buy twice. This is similar, slightly more up to date, as my booster which I've never had to use on my cars so far. I've started two neighbours cars with absolute ease, first time crank. On one of them it had been left for weeks over a cold winter period as the lady who used it didn't want to go out, 2Ltr automatic, Battery totally dead.

[Nick72]

9 hours ago, Thermal said:

 

Google for "NOCO GB40"

 

 

 

 

 

Open the fuse box under the hood and pull up on the red safety cap:  Voilá, the start-up terminal.

 

 

 

Previous winter, after a couple of very cold days, my RAV4 refused to Power-on.

 

After 5 failed power on attempts, I opened the hood, pulled the fuse box lid and the safety cap and measured the battery voltage with a multimeter. I measured 11.8 Volt only, after 4 days in the cold (-8 degrees C).

 

 

 

Knowing this Hybrid weakness thing, I was well prepared and used my NOCO GB40. The RAV Powered on instantly.

 

After that, the GB40 also started my brother in law's big Toyota Landcruiser diesel after 3 cranks!

 

Warning, for those who didn't read the RAV4's handbook on this subject: NEVER try to use starter cables on a Hybrid to help jump-start a "traditional" gasoline or diesel car from this fuse box terminal. You may well burn out your entire fuse box and the cable to the RAV4's 12V battery in the back, or worse.

 

The tiny RAV's 12V battery CANNOT start another car with a starter motor, the way we did since cars exist.

 

 

 

Why is a Hybrid car so picky about its 12V power supply?

 

Simple, the car "knows" that you have an electric "bomb" under your back seat,only millimeters away from the gasoline tank. That can do great harm to yourself and your passengers and could destroy the car in minutes if something would go wrong. Therefore many safety features and rules are implemented in the car's firmware. One of those rules may read: "if low voltage or short circuit, display and log an error and shutdown". Unfortunately in this case the car isn't even ON yet, so no errors can be displayed and logged. 😞

 

 

 

Now in case the battery is very low or "flat", you cannot even open the car. The Remote sends a signal to the doors-controller, which is in the 12V circuit, and ... nothing happens. That's where the emergency key comes to help to open (only) the driver's door. Get in, open the hood, pull the safety cap under the fuse box lid, connect your Starter booster and you're good to go. That is, if you have one! If you have one and stored it in the boot, you're in f*#$.. trouble.

 

Reading some questions in this topic, it's obvious that not every new RAV4 owner took the time to read at least the safety- and the "What to do if ..." chapters in the handbook.

 

Highly recommended, because some things in a RAV4 Hybrid are not so obvious and can become very costly if you are not aware of them.

 

BTW a booster costs only ~ €70 and can help you in a predicament situation.

 

Compare it with a spare wheel that everybody does consider a necessity. 😒

 

Sorry for the long post, hope this does explain some mysteries for some, drive safely and enjoy this very nice car!

 

Thanks, great advice.

 

Looking at the booster.

[Nick72]

9 hours ago, Thermal said:

 

Google for "NOCO GB40"

 

 

 

 

 

Open the fuse box under the hood and pull up on the red safety cap:  Voilá, the start-up terminal.

 

 

 

Previous winter, after a couple of very cold days, my RAV4 refused to Power-on.

 

After 5 failed power on attempts, I opened the hood, pulled the fuse box lid and the safety cap and measured the battery voltage with a multimeter. I measured 11.8 Volt only, after 4 days in the cold (-8 degrees C).

 

 

 

Knowing this Hybrid weakness thing, I was well prepared and used my NOCO GB40. The RAV Powered on instantly.

 

After that, the GB40 also started my brother in law's big Toyota Landcruiser diesel after 3 cranks!

 

Warning, for those who didn't read the RAV4's handbook on this subject: NEVER try to use starter cables on a Hybrid to help jump-start a "traditional" gasoline or diesel car from this fuse box terminal. You may well burn out your entire fuse box and the cable to the RAV4's 12V battery in the back, or worse.

 

The tiny RAV's 12V battery CANNOT start another car with a starter motor, the way we did since cars exist.

 

 

 

Why is a Hybrid car so picky about its 12V power supply?

 

Simple, the car "knows" that you have an electric "bomb" under your back seat,only millimeters away from the gasoline tank. That can do great harm to yourself and your passengers and could destroy the car in minutes if something would go wrong. Therefore many safety features and rules are implemented in the car's firmware. One of those rules may read: "if low voltage or short circuit, display and log an error and shutdown". Unfortunately in this case the car isn't even ON yet, so no errors can be displayed and logged. 😞

 

 

 

Now in case the battery is very low or "flat", you cannot even open the car. The Remote sends a signal to the doors-controller, which is in the 12V circuit, and ... nothing happens. That's where the emergency key comes to help to open (only) the driver's door. Get in, open the hood, pull the safety cap under the fuse box lid, connect your Starter booster and you're good to go. That is, if you have one! If you have one and stored it in the boot, you're in f*#$.. trouble.

 

Reading some questions in this topic, it's obvious that not every new RAV4 owner took the time to read at least the safety- and the "What to do if ..." chapters in the handbook.

 

Highly recommended, because some things in a RAV4 Hybrid are not so obvious and can become very costly if you are not aware of them.

 

BTW a booster costs only ~ €70 and can help you in a predicament situation.

 

Compare it with a spare wheel that everybody does consider a necessity. 😒

 

Sorry for the long post, hope this does explain some mysteries for some, drive safely and enjoy this very nice car!

 

Just looking at the leads and their length on the noco, are they long enough to span the engine bay? On the Prime / PHEV the negative terminal is on one side and the positive on the fuse box on the opposite side as per @erniebdiagram posted.

 

What do you think?

[philip42h]

11 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

Just looking at the leads and their length on the noco, are they long enough to span the engine bay? On the Prime / PHEV the negative terminal is on one side and the positive on the fuse box on the opposite side as per @erniebdiagram posted.

 

What do you think?

There are a trio of handy bolts just behind the fuse box - I use one of those.

Yes, you would need awfully long leads to get to the other side of the engine but that's probably the safest place to go if jump starting from another car.

I'm a fan of Noco - I have a Noco smart charger - but the GB40 is way overkill for the task of topping up the tiny Battery to start a Toyota hybrid - you don't need to dump 1000A through the starter motor since we don't have one. The GB20 is still way more than enough - we don't need 500A either. But, I guess, it depends on what else you want to do with it. See the Noco website for details of what they have ...

[ernieb]

No argument about the power requirement for the Hybrid/PHEV but if you have a second car that’s pure ICE or need to support family members then buying one with the extra boost may be a good option. As always “horses for courses”.

[Thermal]

The length of the cables was indeed the first thing I tested when I received the booster.

They  are certainly long enough in the original RAV4.5. Not sure about the PHEV, but I guess the fuse box is in the same place.

[Thermal]

5 minutes ago, ernieb said:

No argument about the power requirement for the Hybrid/PHEV but if you have a second car that’s pure ICE or need to support family members then buying one with the extra boost may be a good option. As always “horses for courses”.

Mine started a Landcruiser Diesel with no problem. However when such ICE car has other problems, that require multiple start attempts, a heavier model booster may be required. To help a weak 12V Battery get the Hybrid system going, a booster like the NOCO GB40 is sufficient. It is capable of outputting 1000 Amps 😲 but only for short bursts. After that it shuts off before it becomes too hot to handle!  NOCO sells a whole range of far heavier boosters if needed, at increasing heavier prices ...

[PeteB]

I think a key tactic with these jumpstarters is to leave them connected to the 'dead' Battery for a couple of minutes before trying to fire up.  That was in the instructions for my unit (which by chance is branded "RAVpower") and I think it helps by reviving the target Battery a little so it works in tandem with the jumpstater.

[philip42h]

9 minutes ago, PeteB said:

I think a key tactic with these jumpstarters is to leave them connected to the 'dead' battery for a couple of minutes before trying to fire up.  That was in the instructions for my unit (which by chance is branded "RAVpower") and I think it helps by reviving the target battery a little so it works in tandem with the jumpstater.

Indeed. If you want to be really boring and read the manual ... 🙂 ... it suggests:

• connecting the auxiliary power source and leaving matters for five minutes to recharge the 12 volt Battery
• opening and closing the doors of ones vehicle with the power switch 'off' (I'm still wondering why, but that's what it says)
• turning the power switch to 'on' and making sure that the Ready light comes on
• disconnecting the auxiliary power source

[ColinB]

I bought the Noco GB20 booster after problems with the 12V Battery in my C-HR and it worked fine when I had a repeat of the problem. As there isn't a starter motor as such it doesn't really need a high crank capacity but will be useful to take on my motorcycle trips. 

To try to avoid this problem again I've bought a solar charger that easily connects to the Battery in the boot on the C-HR as I don't have a mains supply handy. 

[PeteB]

2 minutes ago, ColinB said:

To try to avoid this problem again I've bought a solar charger that easily connects to the battery in the boot on the C-HR as I don't have a mains supply handy. 

Over the years I've heard from quite a few Hybrid owners who've done this and all that have comments have reported that it's worked well.

[ernieb]

 @ColinB, It’s something I’ve considered and with my parking location the rear of the car faces south so in theory should get the best of the suns energy?

Where have you located your your panel and roughly what size is it?

[Thermal]

2 hours ago, philip42h said:

   ... branded "RAVpower" ...

• connecting the auxiliary power source and leaving matters for five minutes to recharge the 12 volt battery

Even that's not necessary, and it was probably copy/pasted from the ICE version. The whole trick here is to get the car's low voltage circuit at least at 12V momentarily, to enable to bootstrap and start the Hybrid system. A GB40 accomplishes that in seconds.  Then make sure the system "state" is elevated to "READY" in order to enable the High Voltage Battery to charge the 12V Battery. The potential 1000 Amps starter capacity of the GB40 will never be used on the RAV4 because it has no starter motor.

Not sure if the original question has been answered yet, about what exactly uses the  12 Volt Battery, so:

• all lighting is 12V
• front and rear wiper motors
• instrument panels
• multimedia system
• door locking
• alarm system
• remote control receivers
• dashboard accessories front and rear (USB connectors)
• secondary motion/tilt alarm and interior radar (if fitted)
• lane tracing/assist camera
• Dashcam
• and various things I forgot ...

Part of the above mentioned things, such as door locking receiver, alarm system(s), keyless system, etc. remain always active even if the car is switched off and are often mistaken for a "power leak".  Fact is, if you leave the car unused long enough it will drain its 12V battery to a level where it can no longer sustain its most basic services, like unlocking and starting the car. Installing a higher capacity battery only makes that period a bit longer, in the end it will go flat.

I love my GB40, so does my wife's Aygo and other family members' non-hybrid Yarises, and the already mentioned Landcruiser. They all loved the 1000 Amp part of the GB40 (# not sponsored) on various occasions. 🙂

[Yugguy1970]

Interesting article here about power issues and a TSB for 2019/2020 cars

https://www.rav4world.com/threads/difficult-to-start-hybrid-after-10-day-stay-at-airport.314656/

I think I'd definitely switch off the smart key from the car settings if leaving it for a while.

[ColinB]

7 hours ago, ernieb said:

 @ColinB, It’s something I’ve considered and with my parking location the rear of the car faces south so in theory should get the best of the suns energy?

Where have you located your your panel and roughly what size is it?

I bought a "ECO-WORTHY 10W 12V Solar Trickle Charger Car Battery Maintainer" from Amazon, I just lay it on the parcel shelf and use the supplied Croc clips to connect to the Battery. 

Other solar panels are available, but the reviews were reasonable and it certainly seems to be OK so far. 

[Nick72]

12 hours ago, ernieb said:

No argument about the power requirement for the Hybrid/PHEV but if you have a second car that’s pure ICE or need to support family members then buying one with the extra boost may be a good option. As always “horses for courses”.

Yep. Thinking about the wife's car. Pure ICE. No plans to change from her.

[Nick72]

Just ordered a NOCO GB40. 95 quid.

Thanks for the advice each including esp. @Thermal for the recommendation. 

Gets wholesale great reviews. Like the fact I can start other cars no problem.  Neighbours, wife, daughter's in a few years. Also like the fact it doubles as an emergency light and can charge USB devices like phones. I usually carry an emergency power bank in my cars just in case I need to charge my phone if the car has died and I'm up in the wilderness in the North (Winterfell) or north of the Wall in Scotland. 😉

 

Also just ordered a bright green 5m charger cable. The bulky 7.5m one from Toyota is just too long and unwieldy for me especially when wet and raining in winter. No thank you. 4m would have been ideal but 3m was about 0.7m too short.

 

Wasn't planning to spend 220 quid on a new company car but at the end of the day these things will come in handy for future cars too.