PHEV - engine lack of use..............

[Nick72]

6 hours ago, ernieb said:

@Nick72, when I’m experimenting I set the Head Unit to display the power transfer map, (Menu, Info) as like you I find it difficult to accurately tell when the ICE has kicked in by the sound. It’s interesting to see when you’re in HEV or Hold mode and the ICE has kicked in it will show it being on, white rather than grey, and yet the car is running in EV no power draw from the ICE. I’ve assume that the system is running up the engine and getting it warm? 

Good point Ernie. I didn't think of doing that. I need to show that.

[Nick72]

5 hours ago, Rav Rob said:

OK, sounds similar in effect.

Also clever people on the Outlander forums did calculate fuel use in charge mode and actually it didn't work out costly surprisingly, PHEVs have engines tuned for efficiency over performance as they have the motors to help out with power, they make pretty good generators.

I'd be intrigued by the calculations. My thinking (could be wrong) is that burning fuel costs about 4 or so times more than electricity from a home wall box per mile. And if burning fuel to drive a generator to then store it as electrical energy further increases that ratio because of layers of inefficiencies.

[IanML]

11 hours ago, Nick72 said:

.... And if burning fuel to drive a generator to then store it as electrical energy further increases that ratio because of layers of inefficiencies.

The storage losses apply equally to the power from the wall box.

[philip42h]

12 hours ago, Nick72 said:

I'd be intrigued by the calculations. My thinking (could be wrong) is that burning fuel costs about 4 or so times more than electricity from a home wall box per mile. And if burning fuel to drive a generator to then store it as electrical energy further increases that ratio because of layers of inefficiencies.

I've seen figures from VW that suggest we lose 20% of generated electricity in the grid, and a further 5% in the Battery and electric motor - which makes the Battery and motor bit quite good.

I haven't found figures for a generator to Battery step but assuming that it's about the same we might expect to lose 5% in that transition too.

We know that the petrol engine, best in class as it is, is <40% efficient - but that's the case irrespective of whether it's driving the wheels or MG1. So the additional steps of generating electricity, storing it and later using it to drive the wheels might well be around 90% efficient (losses of 5% in generation and 5% in use).

So, yes, the lowest cost per mile is achieved using electricity from home at the right tariff (or anywhere that is free) - some of the charge points are so expensive that it might be actually cheaper to burn petrol! But when you have to burn petrol, the losses from storing energy in the battery to use later don't seem too bad.

And if the above were wholly false, then the prospects for a self-charging hybrid would be pretty grim. 😉

[Nick72]

2 hours ago, IanML said:

The storage losses apply equally to the power from the wall box.

I was thinking of the conversion chain. Generator with frequency wild output, frequency conversion, step up or down, then into the inverter to the car Battery. Whereas going from wall box to Battery is only via the inverter.

I could be wrong as that's how it happens on aircraft in terms of electrical power generation. 

[Nick72]

2 hours ago, philip42h said:

I've seen figures from VW that suggest we lose 20% of generated electricity in the grid, and a further 5% in the battery and electric motor - which makes the battery and motor bit quite good.

I haven't found figures for a generator to battery step but assuming that it's about the same we might expect to lose 5% in that transition too.

We know that the petrol engine, best in class as it is, is <40% efficient - but that's the case irrespective of whether it's driving the wheels or MG1. So the additional steps of generating electricity, storing it and later using it to drive the wheels might well be around 90% efficient (losses of 5% in generation and 5% in use).

So, yes, the lowest cost per mile is achieved using electricity from home at the right tariff (or anywhere that is free) - some of the charge points are so expensive that it might be actually cheaper to burn petrol! But when you have to burn petrol, the losses from storing energy in the battery to use later don't seem too bad.

And if the above were wholly false, then the prospects for a self-charging hybrid would be pretty grim. 😉

I think that's fair Philip. I'd even suggest higher losses. 

 I think there are two calcs I'm interested in. One about how much money it costs me per mile in petrol vs electricity from my 7.4kW wall box. The other is about the environment, which is very hard. It's pretty hard for EVs too. Got to consider whole life from cradle to grave and not just where the leccy came from (coal, gas, nuke, solar, wind, hydro).

[philip42h]

In terms of petrol costs, the HEV and the PHEV should be broadly the same. I'd estimate on the basis of 45 mpg, and, at the current price of E10 that works out at around 14p per mile.

A typical EV consumes around 300Wh/mile - the RAV4 PHEV may be better or worse. Estimating on the basis of 20p/kWh gives an EV cost of around 6p per mile. You may be able to get cheaper tariffs for EVs or off-peak charging; you can certainly pay three times that at some charge stations (Ionity will charge 69p/kWh which would equate to around 21p per mile making petrol cheaper!).

The other considerations are, I think, just too hard. Having a new car is a very bad idea - continuing to run the old one is almost always better. If one goes EV then it is someone else's problem to generate the electricity - at least you would be making it possible for society as a whole to be 'greener'.

[Nick72]

2 hours ago, philip42h said:

In terms of petrol costs, the HEV and the PHEV should be broadly the same. I'd estimate on the basis of 45 mpg, and, at the current price of E10 that works out at around 14p per mile.

A typical EV consumes around 300Wh/mile - the RAV4 PHEV may be better or worse. Estimating on the basis of 20p/kWh gives an EV cost of around 6p per mile. You may be able to get cheaper tariffs for EVs or off-peak charging; you can certainly pay three times that at some charge stations (Ionity will charge 69p/kWh which would equate to around 21p per mile making petrol cheaper!).

The other considerations are, I think, just too hard. Having a new car is a very bad idea - continuing to run the old one is almost always better. If one goes EV then it is someone else's problem to generate the electricity - at least you would be making it possible for society as a whole to be 'greener'.

Spot on. Much agreed. 

Thinking of switching to a green tariff but I think I owe the current supplier a small fortune given it has been too long between meter readings. 

When my Peugeot was going through a spell of 12 miles for a full 13kWhr charge it was costing me more than running a petrol car. That was bad software and subsystems. 

[spicyhotone]

On 9/12/2021 at 12:24 AM, Nick72 said:

Good point Ernie. I didn't think of doing that. I need to show that.

If you've got HUD, you can configure that to show engine RPM - so that clearly shows when the engine is on, without having to take your eyes off the road.

[PeteB]

2 hours ago, spicyhotone said:

If you've got HUD, you can configure that to show engine RPM - so that clearly shows when the engine is on, without having to take your eyes off the road.

If you set that up, does the HSI on the main dash become a Tachometer like in some Lexus models?  When I last drove an NX (2014), selecting Sport Mode changed both the HSA and HUD display to RPM, which could be made permanent in the menus.  See pic below - these weren't digital displays, the NX had 2 ordinary dials with a small info screen between them.

In fact, the first few Lexus Hybrids I drove in the 'noughties' (LS & RX) didn't have an HSI, just a tachometer.  It was fascinating to see it drop to zero every time the car went into EV mode.

AFAIK the 2009 Gen 3 Prius was the first Toyota to get a HUD.  On that, whenever the engine wasn't running "EV" appeared in the HUD.  For soem reason, when the Gen 4 Prius came out in 2016, they stopped doing that.

 

[spicyhotone]

2 hours ago, PeteB said:

If you set that up, does the HSI on the main dash become a Tachometer like in some Lexus models?  When I last drove an NX (2014), selecting Sport Mode changed both the HSA and HUD display to RPM, which could be made permanent in the menus.  See pic below - these weren't digital displays, the NX had 2 ordinary dials with a small info screen between them.

In fact, the first few Lexus Hybrids I drove in the 'noughties' (LS & RX) didn't have an HSI, just a tachometer.  It was fascinating to see it drop to zero every time the car went into EV mode.

AFAIK the 2009 Gen 3 Prius was the first Toyota to get a HUD.  On that, whenever the engine wasn't running "EV" appeared in the HUD.  For soem reason, when the Gen 4 Prius came out in 2016, they stopped doing that.

 

No, the HUD settings are completely independent to the main dial as far as I can see. The Charge/Eco/Power dial is a mechanical device, not digital display, so couldn't really change.

[PeteB]

14 minutes ago, spicyhotone said:

... The Charge/Eco/Power dial is a mechanical device, not digital display, so couldn't really change.

aka Hybrid System Indicator (HSI).

Thanks.  The HSI in the Lexus was a mechanical device too, it just lit up different bits of the black background to give a different appearance.

[Nick72]

9 hours ago, spicyhotone said:

If you've got HUD, you can configure that to show engine RPM - so that clearly shows when the engine is on, without having to take your eyes off the road.

Not tried that. Will try. Thx

[rudirudi]

Hi 

Sorry for my English ,is not perfect at all but i do my best.

I bought the rav 4 plug in hybrid two monts ago, fantastic car, (have already 5000km) i charge it free at my work and in the weekend i use also the

gasoline motor.

But now ik search for  winter tires and rims, so on the toyota site of my garage in belgium ,there is a difference between the rims for a rav 4 'normal' and a plug in,

they recommend for both cars the same tires Bridgestone LM005 225/60R18 104VXL, but the rims for RAV 4 are TMEWA-42004-DX and for rav 4 the plug in TMEWA-42014-DX,

and the price for the rav4 plug in rims are 500 euro more expensive. Any idee what's the reason?

Greetings Rudi

[TonyFR]

Hi Rudi, I live in France and I will soon be looking for winter tyres. I do not plan to buy new rims - storage becomes too difficult (...heavy...) - so I shall just get different tyres. I will be interested to see what my local garages recommend.

[PeteB]

29 minutes ago, TonyFR said:

Hi Rudi, I live in France and I will soon be looking for winter tyres. I do not plan to buy new rims - storage becomes too difficult (...heavy...) - so I shall just get different tyres. I will be interested to see what my local garages recommend.

In case it helps, this is what I do:

 

[rudirudi]

Hi,

I've got a mail from my garage and the price for four rims original Toyota and winter tires  Bridgestone with sensors is 2499 euro.

All original, many people recommend original rims because the quality is superior. 

I have no idea if the price is similar in other country's , the price is from toyota belgium.

Greetings

Rudi

[PeteB]

17 minutes ago, rudirudi said:

... the price for four rims original Toyota and winter tires  bridgestone with sensors is 2499 euro...

I bought one full size matching alloy wheel so I could have a full size spare in the boot.  For this, with the TPWS sensor and a Bridgestone Alenza H/L Tyre my dealer charged £553 ( 2¼ years ago) which is about €647, so four would be €2588.  Bearing in mind my car has 18" wheels and the plug-in is on 19", your are likely slightly more expensive, so your deal doesn't look at all bad.

[philip42h]

19 minutes ago, rudirudi said:

Hi,

I've got a mail from my garage and the price for four rims original Toyota and winter tires  bridgestone with sensors is 2499 euro.

All original, many people recommend original rims because the quality is superior. 

I have no idea if the price is similar in other country's , the price is from toyota belgium.

Greetings

Rudi

Looking on mytyres.co.uk (delti.com) I can find a set of alloy rims and winter tyres complete with TPMS valves for around half that price. They are obviously not OEM, but, there again, they are only winter wheels. I suspect that you could find equivalent pricing on the Belgian site - autobandenmarkt.be.

Just an alternative option. I've used them in the past without regrets ... 🙂

[rudirudi]

HI,

My  rplug in hybrid  dynamic plus has 18" wheels.

[PeteB]

1 minute ago, rudirudi said:

HI,

My  rplug in hybrid  dynamic plus has 18" wheels.

Ah, sorry, I incorrectly assumed yours would have the same size wheels as the UK plug-in.

[rudirudi]

Hi,

Toyota say that you can not use the wheels from a rav 4 normal or rav 4 hybrid on a rav4 plug in hybrid. So for the other rav4's the price is 2000 euro and for the rav4 plug in hybrid it's 2499 euro. 

On the site Giva wheels they send me a mail that there is no difference.

The problem is if i should have an accident or whatever problem , no idea if the insurance should have a probleme with this.

Greetings

Rudi

[philip42h]

6 minutes ago, rudirudi said:

Hi,

Toyota say that you can not use the wheels from a rav 4 normal or rav 4 hybrid on a rav4 plug in hybrid. So for the other rav4's the price is 2000 euro and for the rav4 plug in hybrid it's 2499 euro. 

On the site Giva wheels they send me a mail that there is no difference.

The problem is if i should have an accident or whatever problem , no idea if the insurance should have a probleme with this.

Greetings

Rudi

I think that you need to go back to the owners handbook and check exactly what size wheels and tyres are specified for you car ... and let us know what you find 'cos we are curious. I wouldn't be surprised to find the plug-in on 235 wide tyres (and 18" rims).

Either way, your insurance company can't complain if you fit the size specified for the car in the handbook - you probably ought to tell them, but they can't complain.

[rudirudi]

Hi

Also for the garanty of the car, because in belgium their is a warranty of five years, no idea if this is the same in other country's.

My car before the rav4 was an avensis and i got a new motor after six years and 132000km, without paying an euro.

So the warranty of toyota is very good over here

Greetings

[rudirudi]

Now on the car it's 225/60 R18, i bought  it  new like this  two months ago.