Tax for Cyclists.

[Machloop]

Hi all,

It's a prickly subject I know but I believe its high time we introduced it.  It's one of the subjects that political parties keep clear of as it might not win them any votes.

Why should we do it ?  Well the wannabe Bradley Wiggings lycra brigade are on the increase.  This is fine but go into the country and you will find them in groups who think they have the right of way above all other traffic.  I politely pip them to move over from two abreast and receive  abuse a lot of the time !  When in towns and they are presented with cycle ways they refuse to use them as the occasional kerb my damage their expensive racer bikes "get a more suitable bike to go to work on I say"!  If I use a bus lane I can be fined so how come they can get away with not using their designated paths ?  If I should hit a cyclist it is always assumed it is the motorists fault !  I want all cyclists to pay  a miniumum £10 road tax and have fully comprehensive insurance for themselves!  This revenue could be invested buildling cycle only tracks and release monies for other road repairs for all ?

What do you all think ?

[NGRhodes]

Cyclists can ride 2 abreast, why do you think they should move over for you ?
If you drove in a cycle lane would also get a fine, cyclists do not have to use a cycle lane/way.
If you hit a cyclist how on earth is it their fault ?
Road tax pricing is linked to emissions, how do you justify the £10 ? Also revenue from cyclists would not cover the cost of running such a tax scheme, as all bikes would need vin numbers / registration numbers to track, the administration costs would be high and very hard to police.
Don't forget insurance revenue would go into the pockets of the insurance companies.

[Roy124]

Cycling is a physical benefit and is encouraged. 

Electric cars are green at the point of use and are encouraged. 

Gas guzzlers are not encouraged. 

[Cyker]

15 minutes ago, NGRhodes said:

Road tax pricing is linked to emissions, how do you justify the £10 ?

Road tax hasn't been linked to emissions since 2017 I'm afraid!

Personally I don't think they should be taxed, but I do think they should be required to go through a formal test and be licensed to drive on the roads like all other road users, and have some sort of identification on the bike as a symbol of that (Maybe not like a normal car/bike number plate as even the narrow ones are far too wide to work on a bicycle, but something like that.)

There needs to be a lot more accountability with cyclists - There are good ones, but there are just as many bad ones who don't have lights on their bike, ride on pavements, ride the wrong way up a road, ride through pedestrian underpasses, ride while holding and talking on a phone with one hand, ignore red lights, pedestrian crossings, zebra crossings etc. and it is so common it's considered normal and acceptable right up until something happens.

I do think it should be legal for them to ride on pavements, albeit at slower speeds (Say jogging pace, but definitely not at the 30-40mph I've seen some of these racer and e-bike people get up to!) - Those I'd not mind so much as long as they stick to the pavement at gentle speeds, but for those that want to ride on the road I think they should obey the same rules as all other road users and be held accountable when they don't.

Insurance is a tricky one, but I think it works well as it is - Many people who cycle do so for cost reasons and adding that as a mandatory requirement would be counter-productive for that group. However, the more serious ones usually insure their bikes already anyway.

The thing with being stuck behind groups of them, yes it is frustrating when you know you can go faster, but if they are going to be fellow road users they have the right to be there too - If it helps just pretend they are like a large tractor or horse except you can see past easier and be patient - Eventually you will be able to overtake them. Just take it as an opportunity to take a breath and chill for a bit. (I don't know what it is but I've found I tend to be a lot more chilled out every since getting my Mk4 hybrid... must be those electro magnet waves!  )

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

11 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Road tax hasn't been linked to emissions since 2017 I'm afraid!

Not really accurate. Since April 2017, when one buys a new car, the first year of road tax is linked to emissions, and the following years are not.

 

[AJones]

3 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Personally I don't think they should be taxed, but I do think they should be required to go through a formal test and be licensed to drive on the roads like all other road users, and have some sort of identification on the bike as a symbol of that (Maybe not like a normal car/bike number plate as even the narrow ones are far too wide to work on a bicycle, but something like that.)

Many people start cycling as children, to school, to see friends, go places etc, and will be cycling on roads for some journeys so I can't see how formal testing and licensing could work. Would you make kids take formal tests and have a license before they can cycle home to and from school?

I'd have thought it would be better to have cycling skills as part of the national curriculum, so every kid leaves school with the necessary knowledge and skills to safely ride a bike, if it isn't already covered.

 

3 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I do think it should be legal for them to ride on pavements, albeit at slower speeds (Say jogging pace, but definitely not at the 30-40mph I've seen some of these racer and e-bike people get up to!) - Those I'd not mind so much as long as they stick to the pavement at gentle speeds, but for those that want to ride on the road I think they should obey the same rules as all other road users and be held accountable when they don't.

But then you open a can of worms on how to enforce a speed limit when cycling on the pavement, inevitably some will break the speed limit and pose a risk to pedestrians, particularly older or infirm unable to dodge a speeding cyclist. So I think there's still a need for pavements which are exclusively for pedestrians, but many could be shared pedestrian and cycleways, for example if a road has paths on each side, one exclusively for pedestrians, the other shared with cyclists, then both groups are catered for.

[Cyker]

Yeah, these are just my thoughts, not formal policy

It's obviously not as simple as that, but I do think something needs to be done wrt. accountability and certification.

I actually do think kids should have some sort of formal training before being allowed to cycle on the road - At the moment there is a grey loophole in the law: Most kids cycle on the pavement, which is technically illegal, but as they are below the age of consent we just let it slide because they can't be arrested. Does that make it right? It would if there were some formal stipulations in the law that allowed people to cycle on pavements under certain conditions, but right now, it is technically breaking the law.

When I was in primary school there was a cycle proficiency scheme that had a little test at the end (I still have my certificate somewhere!!   ) - It was completely meaningless and carried less weight than a swimming certificate, but you did learn a lot of stuff that even now I see a lot of adult riders don't do correctly (Most common is setting your seating position correctly - I see so many adult riders who are far too high or low in the saddle and it's painful watching how awkwardly they ride!). A lot of schools still run voluntary courses like that for kids and they even train them how to ride safely on the road, so I think it would be valuable if it was more formal and you got proper certification.

When I see kids riding in the road it's really really obvious which ones have been on such a training course and which ones haven't. That visible difference in skill and safety between the two alone makes me feel quite strongly everyone should have some sort of formal training before being allowed to ride on the road. (But only if we can somehow make allowances for people to ride on pavements, albeit at a much slower pace)

The biggest hurdle will be existing riders getting in a huff ("I've been riding for 20 years! I don't need no stinking certification to say I can ride a &%££#@ bike!"), but if it's going to be done that needs to start somewhere or things will just carry on as they are. Same problem happened with drones, and will soon with e-scooters. Can't see an easy way around it.

You're right about the speed thing being a can of worms - I deffo oppose what some people have suggested, i.e. fitting mandatory speedos to bikes. I think that'd just be stupid. On the flip side, there is no definition in law for 'jogging pace', and even suggesting 'jogging pace' is unbelievably hard to codify because the law doesn't recognise 'common sense' as being a thing. You'd hope that the police would be allowed to use their discretion for things like that, but all it takes is some toff with an expensive lawyer to mess that up for everyone which is why they try to have concrete definitions, but as soon as you say e.g. 8mph, then people will argue that there is no way they can judge what exactly 8mph is and that it's unreasonable etc.

So yeah, can of worms.

[Stopeter44]

On 9/12/2021 at 10:48 PM, Cyker said:

I do think it should be legal for them to ride on pavements, albeit at slower speeds (Say jogging pace, but definitely not at the 30-40mph I've seen some of these racer and e-bike people get up to!) - Those I'd not mind so much as long as they stick to the pavement at gentle speeds, but for those that want to ride on the road I think they should obey the same rules as all other road users and be held accountable when they don't.

 

That's fighting talk 😉. I find cyclists on pavements annoying, if you ride a bicycle, then you need to accept the risk! In the big city, as a pedestrian, I would be tempted to body check them into traffic, I don't, because they may be crazier than I am. 

Edit: OTOH, some kind of accountability for cyclists not stopping at traffic lights, w.h.y. is useful. In some states, in the USA, if you have a driver's license then you can be fined/docked points (it was the case in California in the 80s, when I lived there).

Edited September 20, 2021 by Stopeter44
Extra thought

[Mikw]

I'm against "movement taxes", so a big NO from me for cylists to pay tax. After all, many of them are also motorists and they pay tax already.

And there should be a chance of travellng fasting than walking pace without paying a tax to do so.

[Smani]

Tax? No. IMO no one should be paying more tax from what we all already pay.

Insurance? Definitely. Together with more accountability for their actions on the road. Yes, they do cause accidents.

[Hornet3D]

If nothing is being done to those that ride E-Scouters on the roads and on the pavements when they are illegal,  I see no possible way they will try and introduce new rules for cyclists, justified or not.