Replacement Clutch for Semi Automatic gear box

[PerryW]

Hi, I'm faced with an excessive charge from Toyota to replace the clutch , actuator and flywheel of my 2012 Toyota Aygo. The car has done 40K miles and started beeping when accelerating and revving up between gear changes. It's apparently an MMT gear box and although its only done 40K Toyota are saying these parts wear out even if they are not used much and so as its 10 years old they are trying to justify the £1,900 charge. I have spoken to several automatic gear box specialist garages and they say they are unable to do the work because of something to do with actuator needing to be reprogrammed after replacing the clutch.

I seriously believe Toyota are lying about the need to replace the actuator and flywheel along with the clutch. They initially quoted in the region of £900 for the clutch replacement when booking it in but have now said as above after checking the car.

Can anyone please help with any suggestions as I cannot pay £1,900 for a car that only cost me £6k a couple of years ago and is probably worth little more than the repair cost now.

[FROSTYBALLS]

What damage are the dealer - not Toyota - saying has been done to the flywheel?

[PerryW]

Just had a call from them and they said;

The actuator has gone faulty and scored the flywheel and there are burn marks on the flywheel and this has to be replaced. They can reuse the clutch plates but there are heat marks on the clutch cover and that needs replacing. He said the actuator is an expensive park and for the £1,900 they are not even adding labour on. He said its the actuator thats at fault and it is not engaging the gears.

[Catlover]

The automatic gearbox you have, MMT, is not a “normal” auto box and that is why “several automatic gearbox specialist garages” are not touching it. What you have is a standard manual gearbox BUT instead of you pushing the foot operated clutch down and changing gear by hand the gearchange is automated with arms computer controlled doing the changing instead of you.            
Do a search in the Aygo and Yaris sections of this forum and you will read of more then a few members who have had problems with their MMT auto boxes. It is common that users have endured problems when actually out on the road, often putting them in potentially dangerous situations.             
If you do not want a Toyota dealer to do the job you would be better to find an independent garage with possibly a trained Toyota mechanic, personally it is not a job that you can give to any garage - as you have already found out.

Note - Toyota dealers are independent of Toyota, that is why Frostyballs refers to “the dealer” - not Toyota (the manufacturer).        
 

[Cyker]

It's a pain - You need a second opinion, but finding someone else who deals with such a gearbox can be tricky. Most garages avoid them as they aren't trained and don't want to risk being liable if they bugger it up.

I know there are some specialists who deal with these kind of semi-auto gearboxes, but the ones I'm aware of specifically deal with VW-type DSG gearboxes and not the single clutch Toyota MMTs.

[TonyHSD]

Yes, second or even third opinion from another garages and quotes and if everywhere prices are that high perhaps may ask your insurance to scrap the car and you pay only the excess fee and move on. This aygo mmt  are full stop but some people doesn’t know about that until they find out the hard way, then they will never return to the same make although Toyota offers the best and most reliable automatic transmission in their hybrids. The problem with mmt is that it’s not covered under warranty as those parts are classed as consumables similar to the brake pads ,, although early premature failures might be covered but that’s another topic. The other problems with these gearboxes is that many third party warranty excluded mmt dsg actuator as they know these are problematic and usually are failing often. Kia/Hyundai auto transmission also full stop , they have clutch packs that cost excess of £3500 to replace and months of waiting time for the parts to arrive from Korea. For all people looking for a small automatic car look for Toyota hybrid or full electric, anything else it’s nothing but trouble. 👍

[flash22]

Get it out of there, the flywheel can be skimmed if needed or replaced for under £100 - clutch is around £120 for the kit

auto specialist tend not to deal with them, as in essence is a manual gearbox

there is nothing complex about initializing the gearbox - it can be done without the need of a scan tool

 

INF12215_GB.pdf

I can't see how an actuator has scored the flywheel if the clutch is ok and can be reused

there is a common issue when the sensor in the clutch actuator goes bad - the ecu will not see the clutch position, so it will not engage the clutch or select a gear

A recon clutch actuator is around £300-400 or you can get the sensor for £40 and the motor for £100

 

put it this way, you can swap the gearbox for under £1000 if needed (used) what i doubt

 

Have they given you any error codes ?

[ihpj]

7 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

The problem with mmt is that it’s not covered under warranty as those parts are classed as consumables similar to the brake pads

What utter nonsense. It is this erroneous opinnion that is oft quoted (then repeated by others) and treated as fact on forums. I couldn’t disagree more with this statement. The MMT IS covered by Toyota and the Toyota Extended Warranty.

I know, because I have posted my experience on this very forum of claiming for MMT faults…not once but three times. And I’ll do it a fourth time by this time next year.

[Cyker]

He's not all wrong surely? It would depend on which part of the MMT is the fault - I would imagine the wearing parts of the MMT (e.g. the pressure plate, clutch etc) would not be covered under warranty any more than they would in a normal manual gearbox, but if the bell housing cracked or the ECU popped those should definitely be covered as that's not normal expected wear and tear.

I'm not sure what the actuator is in this context - If that's like a CSC/release bearing then I would also imagine that wouldn't be covered for the same reason, but if that's like some sort of computer controlled release fork or something then it isn't a wearing part and definitely should be covered under warranty...

Also, while googling around I found these which may be worth giving a call by the OP:

https://www.ecutesting.com/common-faults/toyota/toyota-mmt-clutch-actuator-fault/

https://bba-remanshop.com/gb/product/toyota-yaris-clutch-actuator-repair/

The second one says Yaris but still might be worth a call as the Yaris MMT is very similar to the Aygo MMT. BBA-Reman were featured in a couple episodes of the Edd-era Wheeler Dealers so they should be legit; The first link I don't know from Adam  

[ihpj]

@Cyker the entire MMT box is covered. It does not matter whether it is the clutch, actuator, assembly or some other part. Ask yourself this question:

As a driver of such a car please can you tell me how I can cause or contribute to the premature wear of those parts?

You could say, oh but if you keep your foot on the brake pedal when stationary at lights that causes premature wear, or if you do excessive hill starts, or perhaps if you’re driving in slow moving traffic and it’s shifting 1 - 2 - 1…that may be so, but does the handbook advise to drive differently? Was this mentioned at the time you bought the car? Was any different or special consideration made clear that the MMT would not be fit for purpose for such driving?

ProTip: it doesn’t.

So ask yourself how you, as driver, can be held responsible for the premature wear or excessive use? You can’t. Therefore if it ain’t down to you, then it must be a manufacturing issue/failure.

To date neither the Dealer, Toyota GB or the extended warranty company have been able to demonstrably show why, when the clutch, actuator or whatever fails, this would not be covered by warranty…and this is why I have choose to have the Toyota Extended Warranty. My repair turnaround is, on average, 2 days. Hassle factor? Zip. Cost? Well let’s just say I am ahead on all my warranty costs over the years.

I accept the MMT can be fragile and given what it is and difficult to try and get fixed outside of the Toyota network. But when it works it is amazingly easy pleasant to drive and makes the Aygo an absolute HOOT to drive…but if you buy one, get the Toyota Extended Warranty for peace of mind.

[TonyHSD]

1 hour ago, ihpj said:

What utter nonsense. It is this erroneous opinnion that is oft quoted (then repeated by others) and treated as fact on forums. I couldn’t disagree more with this statement. The MMT IS covered by Toyota and the Toyota Extended Warranty.

I know, because I have posted my experience on this very forum of claiming for MMT faults…not once but three times. And I’ll do it a fourth time by this time next year.

Thanks for sharing your opinion and experience. I did also shared mine and although you believe it’s utter nonsense I believe it’s not. I am also happy for you that you had claimed successfully on your warranty but some other people weren’t lucky enough to have same outcome and had to pay crazy money for repairs. In fact that you have to go through all that hassle with mmt problems not once but few times, no offence but I will never recommend to anyone buying a car that has mmt transmission, no Toyota, no Mercedes, nothing. Flash has given already best advice how to get it sorted, with some luck and good mechanics the op can get his car back on the road for less. 👍

[ihpj]

@TonyHSD we aren’t talking about recommending or the merits of the MMT, instead repairability. I apologise for my passion and words used.

Despite my experience with it, I would recommend the MMT but caveat this with make sure you invest in the Toyota Extended Warranty. People’s default reaction to warranty can be very negative, but do the maths. I did and I bought it purely for the MMT. The warranty works out £170-odd per year, take out the MOT cost (£45) it then makes even more sense and has zero excess.

My experience may sound like I have had hassle, but as I said in my follow up post, the repair time is about 2 days and painless.

[PerryW]

I've now found a local garage who say they have done them before and have the software to do it. They have quoted around £550 but the issue is the Toyota dealer has the gearbox off and want me to pay their labour charge for the work so far. This is never explained to me there would be a cost to diagnose the fault and I have refused to pay to which they have said they won't release the car back to me. Does anyone know where I stand legally on having to pay labour costs to diagnose the car if I don't go ahead with the repair?

[FROSTYBALLS]

Presumably they wouldn't be able diagnose the issues without some labour involved. Did you sign anything when you dropped the car off? If you did, this probably gave them permission to undertake work on the car - and also would have included labour costs.

[flash22]

Did you authorize the work to remove the gearbox ? Or just diagnose the issue, pay the charge and dispute it later and take them to small claims the stealerships need to prove that the work/parts was required - was the clutch replacement performed ?? As first requested ??

Your main priority is to get your car back on the road

21 hours ago, ihpj said:

Despite my experience with it, I would recommend the MMT but caveat this with make sure you invest in the Toyota Extended Warranty. People’s default reaction to warranty can be very negative, but do the maths. I did and I bought it purely for the MMT. The warranty works out £170-odd per year, take out the MOT cost (£45) it then makes even more sense and has zero excess.

My experience may sound like I have had hassle, but as I said in my follow up post, the repair time is about 2 days and painless.

The OP's car is 9 years old an extended warranty is either inclusive or exclusive and will usually exclude things like clutches and electrical, mmt actuators being classed as electrical, electrical diagnostics are usually excluded as well

[Cyker]

@ihpj - It all depends on the terms of the warranty - If it includes all that then fair enough, but just because you don't have direct control over over something that may die early because of 'excessive wear' doesn't automatically make it covered by warranty. By that logic, the brake pads on my Mk4 Yaris should be covered by warranty because I have no control over whether they are used or not, as it's all brake-by-wire and the car decides how whether to use regen or the friction brakes, but I doubt there is a warranty in the world what would cover those!

If the warranty doesn't exclude those things then sure go for it, but I find most warranties exclude things that are considered wearing parts. I'd be surprised if the clutch etc in the MMT weren't counted as wearing parts as they definitely aren't designed to last the life of the car!

 

@PerryW - For any diagnostics the standard Toyota dealer diagnostic fee is a flat £130-£150; They should have made that clear when you brought the car to them. Is that what they're trying to hit you up for? If so I'd just pay it. Anything more than that they have to get explicit authorization from you - They can't just go and do more stuff and hit you up for it afterwards. You may need to bring the issue to the ombudsman if that's what's up.

 

[ihpj]

@Cyker Brother you’re missing the point as your comparison is not the same:

Brakes - you decide when to press the pedal to either slow or stop. The car doesn’t regulate the speed by itself autonomously. There is a pedal or switch or mechanism that you as driver decide to depress, press, flick or turn. By definition that is driver controlled. 
 

MMT - I have zero impact on clutch and wear as well as the actuator and assembly as I do not influence when and how the car changes gear. Sure I can drive in manual, but if the speed slows the car will down shift itself. I clearly have no control on the clutch and it’s use as it is all controlled by… guess what…the ECU and car. There is no way I can control how the car engages or disengages the clutch under normal driving conditions. 

I therefore argue an MMT is a self contained unit and quite unlike a manual gearbox clutch should last the life of the car by virtue I cannot influence it…it is by its definition ‘automated manual’ gearbox.

Of course everyone is different and YMMV…

[martswain]

@ihpj, there is no way ANY clutch that works on friction can or could be expected to last the life of the vehicle.

 

By definition it wears every time it is used, whether operated by the MMT system or your left leg and eventually that wear will be terminal.

[Cyker]

13 hours ago, ihpj said:

@Cyker Brother you’re missing the point as your comparison is not the same:

Brakes - you decide when to press the pedal to either slow or stop. The car doesn’t regulate the speed by itself autonomously. There is a pedal or switch or mechanism that you as driver decide to depress, press, flick or turn. By definition that is driver controlled. 
 

MMT - I have zero impact on clutch and wear as well as the actuator and assembly as I do not influence when and how the car changes gear. Sure I can drive in manual, but if the speed slows the car will down shift itself. I clearly have no control on the clutch and it’s use as it is all controlled by… guess what…the ECU and car. There is no way I can control how the car engages or disengages the clutch under normal driving conditions. 

I therefore argue an MMT is a self contained unit and quite unlike a manual gearbox clutch should last the life of the car by virtue I cannot influence it…it is by its definition ‘automated manual’ gearbox.

Of course everyone is different and YMMV…

You can't have that both ways - You say I have control over the brakes as when I press it I slow the car down, but I asserted I have no control over how the car brakes as IT decides whether to use pad friction or the regen to slow the car.

Your argument over the MMT is exactly the same - You say you don't have any control over the gear changes, yet you are using the accelerator the way I would use the brakes in my argument, and arguing that the car decides what gear to use, not you.

How is that any different from the car deciding which brake system to use in my argument, and not me?

 

 

[ihpj]

@cyker you control when to brake. You decide how heavily to apply pressure to the brake pedal. The car does not apply brakes until you tell it too. In the MMT I do not directly control or influence if the car rides the clutch or half engages it, or disengages it. Yes I do use the accelerator and brake pedal but none of those directly link to the clutch. Ergo I do not influence clutch use or wear, the car decides when to change up or down dependant on other factors.

@martswain that may indeed be true but if it is an automated gearbox, by its very nature it is not controlled by the driver (unlike a manual clutch). I know some manufacturers, like VAG explicitly exclude manual clutch wear on a brand new car after 6 months (IIRC). So that’s is clear when buying. However if this is the case with the MMT where is it mentioned? At time of purchase is this made clear that an MMT clutch is a wearable item? Does the brochure or any sales literature mention this? No, it’s does not because Toyota market the MMT as an _automatic_ (whole other debate around MMT not being an auto.) … so if a part wears (or breaks) in an automated gearbox, without clear and obvious evidence of user misuse and abuse, it must be a manufacturing issue and hence covered by Warranty. I suggest people read the exclusions on the Toyota Extended Warranty…it talks about manual clutches but not MMT. 

[martswain]

@ihpj, from the horse's mouth, the latest Toyota Extended Warranty Handbook, downloaded 30 seconds ago.

No differentiation between manual and MMT in regards to clutches.

 

[loz8]

My 2 pennyworth,had a low milage 2yr old manual [only for a yr.] very pleased with it untill holding it for just a minute on clutch,turning into a car park.

The whole cabin filled with acrid smoke. Did some reading that clutches did'nt last. Got rid soon as.

[Cyker]

1 hour ago, ihpj said:

@cyker you control when to brake. You decide how heavily to apply pressure to the brake pedal. The car does not apply brakes until you tell it too. In the MMT I do not directly control or influence if the car rides the clutch or half engages it, or disengages it. Yes I do use the accelerator and brake pedal but none of those directly link to the clutch. Ergo I do not influence clutch use or wear, the car decides when to change up or down dependant on other factors.

So you are arguing that how heavily I apply pressure to the brake pedal determines whether the car uses the friction brakes or not?

In that case I would the argue that you decide how heavily to apply the accelerator which determines how the car shifts. If you hold it on the brake at a roundabout vs crawling up to it that would directly affect how the car shifts and feathers the clutch.

You also suggest that the accelerator has no direct link to the clutch - I would argue that my brake pedal also has no direct link to the brakes as it is brake-by-wire. (The only time I would is if the whole system failed, causing the failsafe to engage). In fact my car will brake on its own with NO user input whatsoever, so I could even argue I have LESS influence over the brakes than you do over how the car shifts.

 

[martswain]

1 hour ago, loz8 said:

My 2 pennyworth,had a low milage 2yr old manual [only for a yr.] very pleased with it untill holding it for just a minute on clutch,turning into a car park.

The whole cabin filled with acrid smoke. Did some reading that clutches did'nt last. Got rid soon as.

Haha, who taught you to drive ?

[ihpj]

Clearly we are not going to change each other’s position, which is fine. You keep paying for your clutch replacement and I’ll keep getting mine replaced under warranty. You can argue whichever you like, and if you want to find reasons to pay for stuff, more power to you.

Fact: MMT clutch can, does and will get changed under Warranty from Toyota 👍