PHEV v EV.

[Broadway One]

Hi all.....Sure this is a well worn topic.

Further fueled by a friend asking me why I have chosen a PHEV over an EV.

Stop to refuel, stop to plug in & charge what's the difference ?

Stock reply, my Badge of choice Toyota don't offer an EV.

When they do I'll take a look.

His take on this was that the window for PHEV's is 5 years max.

Once the public charging network has caught up & EV's become cheaper, PHEV's will have had their day.

He has a point but what about the thousands of tuggers ?

How do EV's fair towing a caravan, a boat, a trailer etc. no small demand ?

Seems the PHEV & particularly the RAV 4 could well have its day IMO.

Barry Wright Lancashire.  

[FROSTYBALLS]

PHEVs will still be available to buy new until 2035, depending what distance they can travel on EV alone. The UK Government has yet to have a consultation and actually decide on what distance this should be.

[ernieb]

I have a PHEV and the main reason, range anxiety of current EV’s.  I can get 50miles + from a charge which covers all my local trips and the economical 2.5l Atkinson cycle engine is there for the longer trips.

I intend to keep this cat for some years so I’m happy enough to have the car.  I’m still not totally convinced when the EV charging services will be in all the areas of the country, large and small.  The breed of Toyota’s BZ due in the next few years will hopefully use they new Battery technolthat they are developing with Panasonic, solid state batteries which have a good capacity and capable with the right charger to charge to 80% in 10mins.  The fast charge is essential for longer trips having to sit for a hour of so to extend the range by a relatively short range does not work for me or for many I think. I know people who have EV’s and it’s fine locally, so is my PHEV, but longer journeys especially in the winter are a pain in the proverbial and can become costly with every stop being a coffee stop. Let alone the pressure on the bladder!

For many a HEV would be a good option as the economy is good and the initial outlay is lower.

[Yugguy1970]

You never know, hydrogen might take off and we'll all be in hydrogen HEVs.

[ernieb]

That could be true but right now the cost and energy needed to priduce hydrogen is high plus the same issues regarding distribution exist as in EV. Very clean if it can be made using wind or solar.

[philip42h]

It's a range / 'recharge' speed question for me. The PHEV / HEV has a range of around 500 miles. When that's exhausted you pull in and fill up - another 500 miles in, say, 10 minutes or a 'recharge' rate of 3,000 mph.

A good EV available today - an eNiro for example - has a range of 230 miles and a recharge rate of 220 mph (from a fast charger assuming that you can find one). If you need another 200 miles range you'll need to stop for a leisurely lunch. This recharge 'delay' is the real 'crimp' for many in switching to an EV.

The next generation of EVs - an EV6 say - has a range of 255 miles and a recharge rate of 590 mph (again from a fast charger assuming that you can find one). Now if you need another 200 miles range all you need to do is stop for a coffee (and I need a coffee every 200 miles anyway).

So, once the next generation of EVs is affordable, and the recharging infrastructure is in place and as readily available as petrol filling stations are today, I'll be in an EV. Until then, hybrids are us ...

There's still quite an issue for folk who don't have the facilities to recharge an EV at 'home'.

[ernieb]

… and the range can be severely compromised as it gets colder. The performance in real life of many pure EV’s does not hold up in real life. Whereas the current bread of Toyota HEV/PHEV meet or exceed the published figures. 

[PAISLEY1903]

I agree - HEV every day for me.  convenience, range, quick refill.  Electric cars are a long way from being mass to market suitable and I really dont want to start a "electric v supermarket v brand comparable" thread 😉

[Terry10]

1 hour ago, philip42h said:

It's a range / 'recharge' speed question for me. The PHEV / HEV has a range of around 500 miles. When that's exhausted you pull in and fill up - another 500 miles in, say, 10 minutes or a 'recharge' rate of 3,000 mph.

A good EV available today - an eNiro for example - has a range of 230 miles and a recharge rate of 220 mph (from a fast charger assuming that you can find one). If you need another 200 miles range you'll need to stop for a leisurely lunch. This recharge 'delay' is the real 'crimp' for many in switching to an EV.

The next generation of EVs - an EV6 say - has a range of 255 miles and a recharge rate of 590 mph (again from a fast charger assuming that you can find one). Now if you need another 200 miles range all you need to do is stop for a coffee (and I need a coffee every 200 miles anyway).

So, once the next generation of EVs is affordable, and the recharging infrastructure is in place and as readily available as petrol filling stations are today, I'll be in an EV. Until then, hybrids are us ...

There's still quite an issue for folk who don't have the facilities to recharge an EV at 'home'.

Couldn’t agree more 👍👍👍👍👍👍 and I could have the charge facility at home.EV is not there yet for me.

EV isn’t there yet for me

[Lawnmowerman]

12 minutes ago, PAISLEY1903 said:

I agree - HEV every day for me.  convenience, range, quick refill.  Electric cars are a long way from being mass to market suitable and I really dont want to start a "electric v supermarket v brand comparable" thread 😉

Go for it - start as many threads as you like 😂😂😂

[MyOpinionIsWorthless]

1 hour ago, philip42h said:

It's a range / 'recharge' speed question for me. The PHEV / HEV has a range of around 500 miles. When that's exhausted you pull in and fill up - another 500 miles in, say, 10 minutes or a 'recharge' rate of 3,000 mph.

A good EV available today - an eNiro for example - has a range of 230 miles and a recharge rate of 220 mph (from a fast charger assuming that you can find one). If you need another 200 miles range you'll need to stop for a leisurely lunch. This recharge 'delay' is the real 'crimp' for many in switching to an EV.

The next generation of EVs - an EV6 say - has a range of 255 miles and a recharge rate of 590 mph (again from a fast charger assuming that you can find one). Now if you need another 200 miles range all you need to do is stop for a coffee (and I need a coffee every 200 miles anyway).

So, once the next generation of EVs is affordable, and the recharging infrastructure is in place and as readily available as petrol filling stations are today, I'll be in an EV. Until then, hybrids are us ...

There's still quite an issue for folk who don't have the facilities to recharge an EV at 'home'.

Agreed. Fleet services (M4) westbound car park capacity 3642 cars.

Charging points 4

[Lawnmowerman]

It would be interesting to see a graph showing the age of registered vehicles in the UK. One would think that the RAV4 (and Toyota's in general) would demonstrate a healthy lifespan over the generic Ford's, Vauxhall's etc. Is it around 26 million registered cars on the roads at the moment? Anyone know the latest figure? That's a lot of old tech to work through to expiry.

This could give a hint to projected end of use as we go forward - accepting that the BEV introduction is a really big spanner in the works for any forecasting.

[PeteB]

2 hours ago, philip42h said:

There's still quite an issue for folk who don't have the facilities to recharge an EV at 'home'.

Recent articles were saying new rules will make it obligatory to incorporate vehicle charging facilities in all new build homes.  I wonder how that will work with a tenth floor flat?

[philip42h]

2 minutes ago, PeteB said:

Recent articles were saying new rules will make it obligatory to incorporate vehicle charging facilities in all new build homes.  I wonder how that will work with a tenth floor flat?

Not too much of a problem provided that the flat comes with a parking space ... 😉

[philip42h]

I can't help wondering whether there is a market for a PHFCEV - a plugin, hydrogen fuel-cell electric vehicle ...

A electric vehicle with a Battery range of, say, 200 miles, combined with a fuel-cell and hydrogen tank to give another 200 miles range. So it can be charged 'overnight' at home to give a useable range, and quickly refilled when on route without excessive dependency on charging infrastructure.

The key advantage over the current PHEV, apart from not running on fossil fuels, is that it doesn't need to carry around a redundant second engine.

Just a thought ...

[ColinB]

I looked into a BEV or PHEV before ordering a HEV RAV4. 

I could install a charger at home, but will be having more and more trips to Cornwall over the next few years (hopefully) where the charging infrastructure is terrible. 

Also the additional cost up front meant that PCP payments would be appreciably higher plus annual tax on non - BEV cars over £40k makes it not sensible financially. 

I will go for a BEV when the prices drop and the infrastructure improves, I would like to keep to Toyota but Hyundi and Kia are leading the affordable segment at the moment

[Rigsby]

2 hours ago, MyOpinionnotrespected said:

Agreed. Fleet services (M4) westbound car park capacity 3642 cars.

Charging points 4

Wouldn’t like to be at the back of the queue 🤣🤣

[Cyker]

1 hour ago, philip42h said:

I can't help wondering whether there is a market for a PHFCEV - a plugin, hydrogen fuel-cell electric vehicle ...

A electric vehicle with a battery range of, say, 200 miles, combined with a fuel-cell and hydrogen tank to give another 200 miles range. So it can be charged 'overnight' at home to give a useable range, and quickly refilled when on route without excessive dependency on charging infrastructure.

The key advantage over the current PHEV, apart from not running on fossil fuels, is that it doesn't need to carry around a redundant second engine.

Just a thought ...

That's actually not a bad idea, I could see that working!

I'd just need the Battery to be big enough to cover my work day, say 100 miles to be on the safe side, then enough hydrogen to cover 400 miles so I can get to places and back without charging stops. Yeah, I can see that working... and the fuel cell part doesn't need to be too high power so could be more compact and optimized for efficiency unlike the one in the Mirai and FCX.

 

[Broadway One]

4 hours ago, ernieb said:

That could be true but right now the cost and energy needed to priduce hydrogen is high plus the same issues regarding distribution exist as in EV. Very clean if it can be made using wind or solar.

Hi all......ta for an interesting debate.

Spot on, green hydrogen derived by passing electricity produced from wind & solar through a electrolyzer losing 30% in the process, the holy grail, unfortunately it's still a gas. Great to directly charge the national distribution network & replace natural gas production would need to be of scale. However the green credentials take a big hit in the next stage to compress (700bar) or freeze (-253℃) hydrogen gas to liquid suitable for fuel cell application (Mirai). I have little doubt that Toyota will pull it off, but as yet some way off.

Finally as I stated a great debate, but still no feedback on my original query re the behaviour of BEV's as a towing vehicle. There must be many thousands of apprehensive caravanners etc. choosing to stay with their only option; diesel or petrol.  

Barry Wright Lancashire.     

[philip42h]

8 hours ago, Broadway One said:

still no feedback on my original query re the behaviour of BEV's as a towing vehicle

Article from Autocar: Top 10 best electric cars for towing. Early EVs tend not to be even rated for towing and towing will certainly kill range but there's no real reason why an EV shouldn't tow - electric trains do it quite well ... 😉

[AJones]

8 hours ago, Broadway One said:

Finally as I stated a great debate, but still no feedback on my original query re the behaviour of BEV's as a towing vehicle. There must be many thousands of apprehensive caravanners etc. choosing to stay with their only option; diesel or petrol.   

Progress of technology is a journey, it starts in one or two particular niches where it fits well then progresses outwards as the technology develops and costs fall,  BEVs are just the same, it's still early days, they are competitive for certain uses but not all as yet.

Look at HEVs, Prius launched in 1997, RAV4 was already being made at that point but it wasn't until almost 20 years later that the RAV4 HEV was introduced. It took that long until hybrid technology was competitive for that size and class of vehicle.

As big heavy vehicles with high energy storage requirements, meaning lots of expensive Battery capacity, I'd expect RAV4 vehicles and others in that class will be some of the last to go full electric, staying with HEV/PHEV until later because of the high cost of batteries.

[Marcusthehat]

The PHEV Rav 4 would have been my preferred choice, but the extra purchase cost was sufficient to persuade me that the ordinary Hybrid would suffice.

This despite knowing that the pure electric element would have covered near 100% of our driving needs "for free".

But the upfront savings will pay for a LOT of petrol.

N.B.

Pure electric ruled out due to some towing requirements.

mth

[Yugguy1970]

13 hours ago, Lawnmowerman said:

It would be interesting to see a graph showing the age of registered vehicles in the UK. O

 

There is howmanyleft.com, that would probably show it.

[Yugguy1970]

There is also initial research going on in how to burn hydrogen to power the wheels directly, removing the hybrid part, so in effect less complex.

[Broadway One]

1 hour ago, philip42h said:

Early EVs tend not to be even rated for towing and towing will certainly kill range but there's no real reason why an EV shouldn't tow - electric trains do it quite well ... 😉

Hi Phil.....agreed but the National Grid Battery has mega capacity.

Barry