PHEV v EV.

[Broadway One]

On 9/22/2021 at 1:22 PM, PeteB said:

The London based Private Hire firm I worked for from their inception in 2006 until I retired now has over 50 Mirai Hydrogen cars and access to a number of fuelling sites that manufacture Hydrogen on-site using electrolysis.  Now, I'm not prepared to predict whether Hydrogen will gain favour, but simply observe that when the Prius (and Honda Insight) Hybrids were launched in 1997 the majority of the motoring world poured scorn on the idea and many major manufacturers hinted they would never follow suit.  Wind forward 24 years, and...

Hi Pete......ta for an interesting post on the Mirai.

Liquid hydrogen is volatile, difficult to store & transport.

On site manufacturing & storage avoiding transportation is the key.

You touch on the hire firm manufacturing on site & dispensing at a fuel pump.

Well done to them, takes courage to use fuel cell vehicles at this early stage.

See one of my posting's   https://www.gridserve.com/braintree-overview/

Gridserve IMO are well ahead of the curve with space to set up a hydrogen manufacturing/dispensing facility.

Renewable electricity at their sites & ready to produce green hydrogen using electrolyzer technology. 

Keep it up Toyota there is a future, we'll back you to the hilt when we can fill up nationwide.

Barry Wright Lancashire.

  

  

 

[PeteB]

5 minutes ago, Broadway One said:

...You touch on the hire firm manufacturing on site & dispensing at a fuel pump...

It was the third party refuelling stations they use that were manufacturing on site.

One article I read some time ago suggested some people might in the future be able to create their own hydrogen supply at home using electricity from solar or wind plus water.  While it would only make small quantities, it could be producing the fuel all there time there was sufficient wind and/or solar power available, maybe enough to partly fuel one car.

As an aside, my old firm had a 2007 Prius converted to plug-in by the UK arm of a small US company.  It's LiON Battery could provide EV for about 40 miles at up to 60 mph.  I used it for a while for my 40 mile each way commute, and plugged in overnight at at the office.  Sometimes I got 1500 miles between petrol fill-ups.

They chap they eventually sold it to had his own wind turbine and ran it almost exclusively from that until he in turn sold it on.

[Cyker]

Making the hydrogen is only part of the issue - The problem of doing it 'home brew' is you need to then somehow compress it to 10,000 PSI before it can be usefully put into the hydrogen tank...!

I'm not sure if it would scale well - IIRC you need several days of sun to generate enough solar power to recharge an EV fully; Given how inefficient electrolysis is I'm not sure how many more days of solar and wind you'd need to extract enough to fill up a hydrogen tank!

 

[ernieb]

I think any energy you can make at home and potentially store would be much better used heating and lighting your home and allowing a much more effective and efficient process to manufacture hydrogen to be done at scale elsewhere. We need the ‘power of the sun’ fusion some journals predict that if might be possible in the near future as early as 2025/30, but that would then need to be scaled.

[Nick72]

Here's the problem with hydrogen...

 

The most efficient and only process for generating hydrogen to bulk demand is the Texaco process. It's a dirty process involving the fracturing of hydrocarbons. 

Hydrogen is notoriously difficult to store. Often requiring liquifaction and pressurised storage and even then it leaks and causes hydrogen embrittlement (permanent irreversible damage to the storage vessel).

Electrolysis processes powered by renewables can't generate volumes needed and requires the use and consumption of precious metals such as platinum.  It is inefficient and expensive. 

Combine the above and it shouts big problems. 

Lots of development occurring so this may be cracked one day but against the trends in Battery tech it really doesn't have much hope.  The only hope it has is in hypersonic aviation. 

Happy to be proven wrong. 

 

[ernieb]

I think I read somewhere that the conversion efficiency is only about 7%. Anyone know what it is based on best practice today?

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, ernieb said:

I think I read somewhere that the conversion efficiency is only about 7%. Anyone know what it is based on best practice today?

The attached comes from a VW article on hydrogen fuel cells which suggests BEV efficiency is around 76% while hydrogen fuel cell efficiency via electrolysis is around 30%:

The article aims to advertise VW BEVs, but that doesn't make it 'false' ... 😉

[ernieb]

Sorry Philip I had meant to say what is the efficiency in conversion during the hydrogen manufacturing process. Energy in vs out. Interesting article.

[IanML]

The energy efficiency considerations of H2 vs Battery will become secondary once the renewable sources of electric energy predominate.  The issue will then primarily become one of time efficiency, i.e. speed and frequency of refueling, particularly for the haulage industry.  If the infrastructure for hydrogen refueling takes hold, driven by the timesheets of haulage drivers (assuming there are any), I would expect it to become viable for cars as well.

The storage issue will be addressed by comparatively low pressure adsorption technology which is in development.

H2 fueling will help to address the problems presented by home charging for high-rise dwellers.

[Broadway One]

15 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Hydrogen is notoriously difficult to store. Often requiring liquifaction and pressurised storage and even then it leaks and causes hydrogen embrittlement (permanent irreversible damage to the storage vessel).

Electrolysis processes powered by renewables can't generate volumes needed and requires the use and consumption of precious metals such as platinum.  It is inefficient and expensive. 

Hi........take the point.

A snapshot of liquid hydrogen fuel & it seems a no brainer.

Fill the tank (10mins) 400 Km (HEV) v Plug in (2 hrs) 400 Km (BEV)

However the end to end process for hydrogen leaves batteries a clear winner for now. But nothing stands still, particularly with green hydrogen gas (fuel cells will have to wait for now) if it can be produced at scale. Separating hydrogen using renewable energy through  electrolyzers (think stacks of shipping containers) is already happening losing  30% in the process. As intimated taking things further to liquify hydrogen either by compression (400bar) or freezing (-253 ℃) consumes yet lots more energy plus robust pressurized, or super insulated storage tanks either problematic.    

Lots going on with prototype green villages using hydrogen as a domestic fuel to replace natural gas. There is a directive to hydrogen proof the existing UK gas network by 2030. Consumer transition (nothing new) will very much replicate what happened in the 1960's, swapping from town or coal gas (mostly hydrogen) to natural gas involving boiler & appliance mods. in millions of households; no big deal IMO.

Barry Wright Lancashire.      

[Nick72]

1 hour ago, Broadway One said:

Hi........take the point.

A snapshot of liquid hydrogen fuel & it seems a no brainer.

Fill the tank (10mins) 400 Km (HEV) v Plug in (2 hrs) 400 Km (BEV)

However the end to end process for hydrogen leaves batteries a clear winner for now. But nothing stands still, particularly with green hydrogen gas (fuel cells will have to wait for now) if it can be produced at scale. Separating hydrogen using renewable energy through  electrolyzers (think stacks of shipping containers) is already happening losing  30% in the process. As intimated taking things further to liquify hydrogen either by compression (400bar) or freezing (-253 ℃) consumes yet lots more energy plus robust pressurized, or super insulated storage tanks either problematic.    

Lots going on with prototype green villages using hydrogen as a domestic fuel to replace natural gas. There is a directive to hydrogen proof the existing UK gas network by 2030. Consumer transition (nothing new) will very much replicate what happened in the 1960's, swapping from town or coal gas (mostly hydrogen) to natural gas involving boiler & appliance mods. in millions of households; no big deal IMO.

Barry Wright Lancashire.      

Barry, great points. This has to be a race, a competition so we'll see where we end up and it could be a mix of solutions in the end. Certainly something magical about going from water and back to water. Just need an efficient, effective, and volume driven process to compete with the emerging Battery tech. 

Whilst 3 to 4 times the specific energy of even kerosene, hydrogen is of course 4 times more voluminous. I think this could be the issue when it comes to a competition in size, weight constrained vehicles (cars and aeroplanes). This is subtle because what it really means is a loss of the design freedoms you get with ever shrinking Battery and emotor tech. Take the Rivian truck as a great example. It's frunk alone has as much capacity as our RAV4s. As a consumer that's very attractive. 

Interesting times so we'll see what happens over the next 5 to 10 years. One thing is clear, we absolutely need to sort our mess out when it comes to this planet. 🙏🤞

[Broadway One]

On 9/22/2021 at 9:36 AM, philip42h said:

I tow my caravan regularly for 400 miles in a day refuelling my diesel PHEV car once. I have yet to see a charging point that can accommodate a car and caravan…..

Hi Philip....good to read stuff from someone out there actually walking the walk. You make a valid point re access to charging points with a caravan in tow; hassle on hassle. Ubitricity owned by Shell are currently installing EV charging pods to street furniture, lamp post, etc. Lots of local streets here with 20/30 terraced properties each side, 6/10 lamp posts. How's that going to work ? Seems a deliberate policy to throw the problem out there & let people sort it out. In the meantime, what a mess.

Barry Wright Lancashire.     

[philip42h]

28 minutes ago, Broadway One said:

Hi Philip....good to read stuff from someone out there actually walking the walk. You make a valid point re access to charging points with a caravan in tow; hassle on hassle. Ubitricity owned by Shell are currently installing EV charging pods to street furniture, lamp post, etc. Lots of local streets here with 20/30 terraced properties each side, 6/10 lamp posts. How's that going to work ? Seems a deliberate policy to throw the problem out there & let people sort it out. In the meantime, what a mess.

Barry Wright Lancashire.     

Barry, the quote you quoted didn't come from me! So that would be an improperly edited misquote! 😞

[Flatcoat]

The quote is from me…. However have now ordered a RAV4 PHEV for January delivery. Current car sold within 2 hours of advertising. 

[Dippy]

My next, hopefully not for 2-3 years, will be fully electric. The range anxiety will only affect me a few days (weeks) a year, in which case I’d plan my trip accordingly. But I will be free from oil changes, spark plugs, gearboxes, checking the coolant and antifreeze levels, and from what I hear brake pads and fluid changes also; maintenance this and maintenance that. PHEVs still have those. Couple of friends have EVs, they swear they won’t go back. I will live with the range problem but get many other benefits. 
No one has mentioned how younger people are less enamoured with car ownership and several may just rent one for a few hours a time. 

[Stopeter44]

33 minutes ago, Dippy said:

 Couple of friends have EVs, they swear they won’t go back. I will live with the range problem but get many other benefits. 

No one has mentioned how younger people are less enamoured with car ownership and several may just rent one for a few hours a time. 

1. Where I live, and especially in cities, many people do not have an easy way to charge their electric car over night at home. They live in flats, and even new, just being built, flats do not have the "service shaft" (or whatever the right vocabulary is for the tube that the electric cable goes through) preinstalled at the flat's parking spot (if there's a parking garage). I even heard the bogus excuse it was because of "fire hazard" (total rubbish, they just don't want to cut into the profit margin).
2. City apartment/flat dwellers do not need the expense, especially if they are "dinkys", of a car. When we lived in and close to Paris we rented cars, it worked out at about 2500€ a year for a car when we needed one (that was all in, rent and fuel). We used the train for long distances, and learned how to pack lightly. 

Edited October 1, 2021 by Stopeter44
Chastened for robust language, shame on me !

[Cyker]

Being able to charge at home will always be a luxury that won't be available to the majority - IMHO where they should concentrate mass-deployment of chargers is supermarkets and big shopping centres.

[Nick72]

3 hours ago, Cyker said:

Being able to charge at home will always be a luxury that won't be available to the majority - IMHO where they should concentrate mass-deployment of chargers is supermarkets and big shopping centres.

Definitely. 

[Broadway One]

On 9/29/2021 at 6:13 PM, Flatcoat said:

The quote is from me…. However have now ordered a RAV4 PHEV for January delivery. Current car sold within 2 hours of advertising. 

Ta for that with apologies to all for my error.

Will you be towing with the new RAV PHEV ?

Sure, me included & others on this forum will be interested in your feedback.

Best of luck with the newbie, collect mine Monday.

Barry Wright Lancashire. 

[Flatcoat]

Yes I will albeit probably not until March to get a few miles on the engine before towing. Pulling a Swift Eccles 580 with long trips so far planned next year to Scotland, Austria and Cornwall so will have about 4000 miles towing over the year. 

[AJones]

16 hours ago, Cyker said:

Being able to charge at home will always be a luxury that won't be available to the majority

The majority of homes in the UK do have off-road parking, it's around 30-40% of homes which don't, so a substantial minority.

But things are developing pretty fast, London and Coventry are rolling out on street charging using lamp posts to charge in residential streets, look at Zap Map and there's a forest of these on street charge points. It's getting there.

 

 

[Flatcoat]

Not where the steeet lamps are at the back of footpath. It isn’t just about having in curtilage parking but the the local infrastructure. There are already cases where potential EV buyers cannot have a charging point installed due to lack of capacity in the local supply. 

[Cyker]

@AJones - Maybe up north where there is more land, but certainly here in London street-parking is the norm for the vast majority! I don't like the street lamp idaea - There aren't anywhere near enough street lamps on a given street to charge every car in a neighbourhood, esp. as they are starting to thin out street lamps to save local councils power bills here - I think it will just create conflict between neighbours if the fuel shortage is anything to go by, as they fight over who gets to charge.

I still think the best way is to prioritise major car parks - supermarkets, retail parks, conference/event/stadium-type locations. Everyone goes to them, and will need to leave their car there for a significant but, and this is important, *limited* period. Enough to charge but not long enough to hog, which would be very easy to do with a street lamp charger outside your house!

 

[robo1]

Other problem with street parking is not all cars are used everyday so one car can sit for days at the charger. Same thing happens at stations. Just had a week up in Scotland and went to the new local station to drop our son off early in the morning. Electric mini arrives. Driver plugs in ( only 2 chargers) then gets onto the train. Won’t return till the evening so  charger is out of use to others all day. 

[Broadway One]

On 9/29/2021 at 6:13 PM, Flatcoat said:

The quote is from me…. However have now ordered a RAV4 PHEV for January delivery. Current car sold within 2 hours of advertising. 

Ta for that with apologies to all for my error.

Will you be towing with the new RAV PHEV ?

Sure, me included & others on this forum will be interested in your feedback.

Best of luck with the newbie, collect mine Monday.

Barry Wright Lancashire.