Oil change — 6 months / 5000 miles vs 12months / 10k km?

[baxuz]

I've been seeing a lot of articles and videos recommending to change your oil every 5000 miles (~8k km) or 6 months, especially if you mostly drive infrequent, urban short trips. And that one can expect the newer cars to start consuming oil since the piston rings aren't as tight against the cylinder walls for better efficiency.

The official Yaris Hybrid mk4 service plan, however, is every 12 months or 10000 km, whichever comes first.

These same sources say that the less frequent oil change is a new thing being marketed, driven by customer demand, but that it is really pushing it on what's good for the engine.

I'm not really sure what to think about this, so I'm really hoping to get some more insight from non-US sources.

[FROSTYBALLS]

Toyota Europe service intervals are 12 months or 15,000km, whichever occurs first. Toyota GB service intervals are 12 months or 10,000 miles, whichever occurs first.

Haven't seen that Toyota importers in Europe have different service intervals to the above - ie 12 months/10,000km.

In the US it is fairly common for oil changes to occur every 6 months/5,000 miles, although the same doesn't apply in Europe, and most people stick with the 12 months/15,000km/10,000 miles stipulation.

You can, if you wish do an oil change sooner than the above - your choice and it should do no harm.

 

[baxuz]

My bad, it was 15,000km, not 10,000.

Guess I can't change the post now.

  

58 minutes ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

You can, if you wish do an oil change sooner than the above - your choice and it should do no harm.

Thanks for the info.

[MikeSh]

2 hours ago, baxuz said:

recommending to change your oil every 5000 miles (~8k km) or 6 months, especially if you mostly drive infrequent, urban short trips

Most manuals recommend a shorter change interval for 'harsh' conditions, which is usually defined as very dusty/dirty environments or mostly short journeys where the engine rarely gets fully warmed up. It's your choice as to whether your use falls in one of those categories and if so by how much and hence how much shorter you go between changes.

But if you don't expect to keep the car for more than a few years it's probably not worth worrying about.

Most of these videos and articles are really being a bit OCD about the oil being anything other than pure gold. They often say to do a flush as well, which is mad if the oil is barely discoloured. 

[MikeSh]

2 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

it should do no harm.

Except that displaced filter seals, reused sump plug washers and other errors are going to be more likely the more often you disturb them. And then there's the cost of modern oils and the environmental aspects.

I feel it's a bit of an "If it ain't broke don't fix it" thing.

[baxuz]

9 hours ago, MikeSh said:

But if you don't expect to keep the car for more than a few years it's probably not worth worrying about.

I had the last car for 20 years. I expect this one to be a stopgap solution until EVs become a more approachable solution.

By that I mean on par with prices to ICEs, better cells like solid state batteries, and most importantly, better infrastructure since I don't own a garage.

I expect these to become the norm in about 5 years, if reports and forecasts are to be trusted.

[Catlover]

Remember, if you start changing engine oil at 5000 mile travelled intervals it actually means you are changing oil at approx 3000 miles, that’s a bit over the top isn’t it? 
I got the 3000 mile from the fact hybrid car engines are not always running. They running maybe 50 to 60% of the time. 60% of 5000 being 3000 miles.

[NGRhodes]

Modern oils are very good, I've seen plenty of used oil analysis over the years and there is no need to do anything different from manufacturers specified intervals.
Best example I've seen is an 80s Saab turbo (10w40 factory spec), run on Shell 0w30 long life, managing 19k mile intervals, with regular 100mph plus Autobahn use (500 miles a week). No excess metals, additives pack still good for approx 23k miles according to 3 or 4 used oil analysis, for a car that was supposed to have its oil changed every 10k miles.

PS USA intervals used to be short due to a mix of high levels of Sulphur in fuel that sledged oil with high frequency (a much rarer issue over this side of the pond) and much lower oil quality specs compared to Euro/Jap cars, fuel quality is much closer/same now and US spec oils are not that far behind (though they don't seem to have anything to match Euro long life oils).

[MikeSh]

8 hours ago, baxuz said:

I expect these to become the norm in about 5 years, if reports and forecasts are to be trusted.

They aren't. The govt has pushed EVs but has failed to grasp the need for the charging infrastructure, which for people like you is critical.

There is some progress being made now, but of course it's playing catch-up with the number of new EVs hitting the streets, so I don't expect the charging infrastructure to be adequate for 10 years or more.

[Saxmaniac]

Look at the car care nut's channel. He states manufacturers service recommendation is the minimum required to get  it through their idea of car's lifetime. If you want to maintain the car to last, 5000 mile oil changes are the norm, 60k or 6 year transmission oil. The hybrid engine is starting at stopping lots and temperature all over the place which must be hard on oil. 10000 mile oil changes might be ok if the car is used on motorway daily so the engine is running at proper full temp continuously which is when the engine and oil has the least wear per mile

[Stivino]

I think I’d rather stick with what is recommended by the manufacturer than take the advice of a self proclaimed “nut” on YouTube.

[baxuz]

1 hour ago, Saxmaniac said:

Look at the car care nut's channel. He states manufacturers service recommendation is the minimum required to get  it through their idea of car's lifetime. If you want to maintain the car to last, 5000 mile oil changes are the norm, 60k or 6 year transmission oil. The hybrid engine is starting at stopping lots and temperature all over the place which must be hard on oil. 10000 mile oil changes might be ok if the car is used on motorway daily so the engine is running at proper full temp continuously which is when the engine and oil has the least wear per mile

That was one of the main channels I was looking at, which is why I was asking.

[TonyHSD]

Car nut guy knows well his stuff👍, I agree with most of his content and I also I watch his videos as they are really helpful and educational. I also have been in the trade like him for many years, not anymore for now I only drive a lot in connection with my current job but take care of my cars by myself since it’s what I like to do as hobby. I had chance to work on my car often 5x 10k miles services per year which give me an opportunity to experiment with different oils, filters, additives, fuels, tyre plus other parts and monitor how they affect the car performance, reliability and overall drivability of the car. For the oil change intervals a big role plays the geographic region where the car has been used, US is very different than UK or Russia for example. Air temperatures, humidity, dust, all of that factors will have a different effect on the same car and engine.  By default changing your oil more often than necessary will no harm the engine or the environment if it’s done properly the oil goes for recycling, the filter may goes too or perhaps ends in the field somewhere but that’s different topic. When you are late for your oil change on regular basis then it’s  where the problems start along with using the wrong oil type and grade, often practice especially in independent garages. When I was trading with used vehicles often seen cars with almost no oil in or more oil in the air filter than in the oil sump😥🤭⚠️, many of these were one owner with low mileage and full service history … 
The 5000miles mark is where the oil may starts to deteriorate a bit if the car been used exclusively in short town trips, or keep idle for long time regularly. The higher quality is the oil the more resistant to this process will be. Everyone can decides for themselves at what intervals to get the oil changed.I stick will manufacturer recommended 10k oil and filter change plus the cabin filter which is the most important in your car, you can buy a new engine but you can’t buy a new lunges, at least not yet 😉👍

First pic 5k miles Second pic 9k miles Third pic new oil only done 60 miles

[NGRhodes]

1 hour ago, Saxmaniac said:

Look at the car care nut's channel. He states manufacturers service recommendation is the minimum required to get  it through their idea of car's lifetime. If you want to maintain the car to last, 5000 mile oil changes are the norm, 60k or 6 year transmission oil. The hybrid engine is starting at stopping lots and temperature all over the place which must be hard on oil. 10000 mile oil changes might be ok if the car is used on motorway daily so the engine is running at proper full temp continuously which is when the engine and oil has the least wear per mile

Where is the evidence to backup these claims ?
All (excluded a few cases of design flaws)  the dozens) of used oil analysis I have looked at for Euro ACEA spec oils can easily manage manufacturers oil change intervals. Also numerous high mileage teardowns I have come across on the web show that excess engine wear due to insufficient lubrication is not an issue.

[NGRhodes]

15 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

 When you are late for your oil change on regular basis then it’s  where the problems start along with using the wrong oil type and grade, often practice especially in independent garages. When I was trading with used vehicles often seen cars with almost no oil in or more oil in the air filter than in the oil sump😥🤭⚠️, many of these were one owner with low mileage and full service history … 

This is very very true, I have seen a number of cars over the years with full service history but with very old air and pollen filters, makes me wonder if the correct oil is used.

[NGRhodes]

23 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

The 5000miles mark is where the oil may starts to deteriorate a bit if the car been used exclusively in short town trips, or keep idle for long time regularly. The higher quality is the oil the more resistant to this process will be. 

Going back many years the old dyno oils used to gradually breakdown with age/use, semi-synthetics were a step better, but in the era of fully synthetics the actual base oils are very resistant to breakdown with use (don't forget ACEA requires an oil to stay in grade for the life of the service interval), the big differentiator nowadays is the quality of the additive packs, these do deplenish with use, but some of the recent additives on the premium oils are amazing, such as viscosity index improvers used in TGMO 0w20 (the additives that stop an oil getting too thick when cold) are almost as robust as the base oils, barely any change in viscosity recorded over a 10k mile service interval on the few used oil anaylsis I have seen.

[Saxmaniac]

41 minutes ago, NGRhodes said:

Where is the evidence to backup these claims ?
All (excluded a few cases of design flaws)  the dozens) of used oil analysis I have looked at for Euro ACEA spec oils can easily manage manufacturers oil change intervals. Also numerous high mileage teardowns I have come across on the web show that excess engine wear due to insufficient lubrication is not an issue.

I'm just OTT with maintaining my own vehicles as I keep them long term. I would rather spend a relatively small amount of money and half hour of my time and do extra oil changes. Hey, it's your vehicle, do what you want! I might be wasting my money or not but I'll only know if the engine is sweet and burning no oil by the time the bodywork falls off it!

[Red_Corolla]

It's very subjective and depends on your use case.

For me, the car will last me long enough with the standard service intervals, which are already much more conservative than many other brands where they go to 2 years or 20k miles & beyond. I don't need to sink a grand into extra oil changes over the next 200k miles so that I can make sure the engine lasts another 200k, because it's not going to happen.

Remember that things are different in the US. There's more high mileage vehicles, oil is cheaper and car residuals are crazy high compared with ours. What makes sense for them doesn't necessarily carry over to us.

[MikeSh]

1 hour ago, TonyHSD said:

Third pic new oil only done 60 miles

I wish they'd add some colour - with these thin modern oils I struggle to tell where the level is on the dipsticks these days.

[MikeSh]

3 hours ago, Saxmaniac said:

The hybrid engine is starting at stopping lots

But it hardly ever idles - when it runs it's doing work.

[mrpj]

4 minutes ago, MikeSh said:

I wish they'd add some colour - with these thin modern oils I struggle to tell where the level is on the dipsticks these days.

Add a small amount of ultra violet leak detector fluid. It turns the oil slightly pink/red.

I did, to check, when a main dealer incorrectly diagnosed that the rear main engine seal was leaking. No it wasn't, they admitted as such when I told them that it would be a warranty claim! That was the last main dealer service I had.

[Red_Corolla]

2 minutes ago, MikeSh said:

I wish they'd add some colour - with these thin modern oils I struggle to tell where the level is on the dipsticks these days.

Fiat, in their wisdom, decided to make the dipstick on my wife's car out of beige plastic.

By comparison, the dipstick on my Corolla is dead easy to read, even with new oil 

[NGRhodes]

1 hour ago, Red_Corolla said:

It's very subjective and depends on your use case.

For me, the car will last me long enough with the standard service intervals, which are already much more conservative than many other brands where they go to 2 years or 20k miles & beyond. I don't need to sink a grand into extra oil changes over the next 200k miles so that I can make sure the engine lasts another 200k, because it's not going to happen.

Remember that things are different in the US. There's more high mileage vehicles, oil is cheaper and car residuals are crazy high compared with ours. What makes sense for them doesn't necessarily carry over to us.

No its not subjective, its completely measurable (from used oil anaylsis to looking for wear with a scope to a full engine teardown/xray).
You are completely right about use case, thought vast majority of people are covered by the bog standard intervals per the manual, but attention does need to be paid as a lot of manufacturers recommend shorter intervals for hard use (pure town, performance, towing, mountains, extreme temperatures), less of an issue than it used to be, I tend to use a long life (2 year/20k) oil as they don't cost much more and stick to 1year oil changes.

Yup America has had a number of different challenges, lower quality oil out of the ground, higher sulphur fuel, less advanced engine designs, federally mandated poor oil specifications, have lead to the America oil market to evolve very differently to Euro/Asian oil specifications, which is why 5000 mile oils changes are so common over in the USA, need to be careful when looking at advice on the web as result as its not transferable between American and Euro/Asian oils.

[NGRhodes]

1 hour ago, Saxmaniac said:

I'm just OTT with maintaining my own vehicles as I keep them long term. I would rather spend a relatively small amount of money and half hour of my time and do extra oil changes. Hey, it's your vehicle, do what you want! I might be wasting my money or not but I'll only know if the engine is sweet and burning no oil by the time the bodywork falls off it!

Better to be over than under, I tend to stick to regular intervals but going for higher quality oils as a safety net.