"Hybrids can't possibly use less fuel than a conventional ICE.."

[yossarian247]

More of a general rant than anything specific to the Prius, but does anyone else encounter people in everyday life who will try to tell you in great detail that hybrids are a con because they can't possibly achieve better fuel consumption figures than a conventional petrol engine?! They then often go on to give various spurious 'scientific' reasons of why they are right.

Clearly myself and various friends and family who easily achieve 60+ MPG in our hybrid cars are all just imagining it! 

[Stopeter44]

I always thought hybrids were an erroneous good solution. That’s as far as my argument against them went.

At the time. Starting 2005 until late 2020, firstly I thought a small capacity diesel car was the way to get better fuel consumption. Then later, I thought pure electric was the way to go.

Two things have made me change my mind.

1. Moving away from dirty diesels, my current petrol car uses roughly 20% more fuel, except in city driving where it is about the same.

2. Investigating Toyota’s system, I realised just how clever it was.

OTOH, the hybrid system does strike me as complicated, in the sense that they need a lot of electronics to make them work, but are they really less complicated than a conventional automatic transmission car ? I’ve decided that there’s not much in it from that POV.

I love the elegance of Toyota’s solution.

Now I consider the Toyota Hybrids “sweet spot” for a new car buy, today in 2021. However, I think a slow but then rapid transition to “something else” is in progress.

[Yugguy1970]

Two of the.missus cars driven the same on the same regular journey.

Fiesta 2020 1.0 ecoboost 100ps 39mpg.

Yaris 2021 1.5 hybrid 65mpg.

 

Two of my car's driven the same on the same regular journeys.

Focus 2019 1.5 182ps 30mpg.

Rav4 2021 2.5 hybrid 45mpg

 

Neither of us are consciously trying to hypermile or to thrash them everywhere, just normal driving.

 

 

[Stopeter44]

The 2021 Fiestas havez flexifuel option in France, but the don’t have an automatic gearbox. They can run on E85 which more than 50% less expensive than E10. Under those circumstances the Fiesta would be cheaper to run than the Yaris, or at least on a par.

[AJones]

Haven't encountered people claiming hybrids are no more efficient. 

I've seen people complaining about the 'self charging hybrid' claims, that it gives the impression they are comparable with electric cars but without the need to charge, rather than simply more efficient petrol cars.

I've also seen a lot of EV enthusiasts grumbling about PHEVs without much appreciation of how they operate, they seem to assume that once the Battery runs out PHEVs essentially start up the engine and run like a regular petrol car, rather than running as an efficient hybrid. 

[Roy124]

Let's get away from the facts 😁

Energy can be neither created nor destroyed and is merely changed in form. 

Take two cars both cold, both on the top of a hill. The ICE and the Hybrid, the latter with minimal Battery and both with identical quantities of fuel energy. 

A gentle push and they both set off.  Both car ICE start up.  The HICE to warm its engine, the PICE to provide power to the brake servo. 

As they descend the THICE charges the drive Battery converting petrol to amps and thermal and the motors also charge it converting potential energy to kinetic and stored too. 

The PICE simply converts petrol to thermal some required to warm the ICE, the rest is lost. 

Once the THICE has sufficient stored thermal the ICE switches off and the motor continues to store electrical energy. Let us assume the grade changes at the same time as to DB has reached stored capacity. 

As we start to climb the heavier and larger engined THICE needs more energy to reach the summit but does this using both petrol energy and stored energy.  The PICE also needs energy which comes purely from the ICE.  Being lighter it will need less petrol. 

At the summit energy consumed will have been identical. Where is the efficiency of the THICE in this case? 

Reaching a level road the THICE will run the ICE to restore power to the Battery and power the motors.  The PICE will need less power but will lose thermal energy to the air. 

Once the THICE battery has sufficient capacity it will assist or replace the ICE in maintaining the kinetic energy conversion. 

The THICE gain therefore is through the conversion of thermal energy and on undulating roads potential energy to amps. 

Some journey profiles will need more petrol conversion by the THICE but the PICE will always waste heat. 

[Roy124]

A Jones, on your last point, it is conditional on the plug in having actually been plugged in for it to benefit from the simple self charging hybrid. 

 

[TonyHSD]

Haha, interesting reads, I have seen it all. Some people talk things that has nothing to do with reality. Many think hybrids are indeed like electric cars and ask for ev range, others says self charging it’s bs, or these cars breaks down often and because they are more complicated cost a lot to repair, and similar comments definitely comes from those who never actually been in a hybrid even in a Uber ride. There are so many people out there that hasn’t open their eyes for Toyota hybrids magic yet but what about Tesla, perhaps electric cars look like devil for them 🤣👍 but with the time more and more will learn and accept the new tech. Talking about hybrids, we have to note that only Toyota made hybrid system is worth any consideration if you after real benefit from the hybrid system in a long run, these drives the best and lasts the longest, and cost the least to maintain. Basically the cars of the future should be all electric and wherever are an ice cars in use should be Toyota hybrids. Seriously if you about a new car now and you are not ready to go full ev there is absolutely no better choice than any Toyota hybrid model, just because of the hybrid drive train. 🚗👍

[Roy124]

We settled on Toyota because:

1. Total disinterest from Volvo. 

2. Offhand attitude at Kia. 

3. Nissan only had EV. 

4. Hyundai didn't have one with power on. 

We are thankful we bought Toyota by default. 

[Stopeter44]

1 hour ago, Roy124 said:

As we start to climb the heavier and larger engined THICE needs more energy to reach the summit but does this using both petrol energy and stored energy.  The PICE also needs energy which comes purely from the ICE.  Being lighter it will need less petrol.....

Some journey profiles will need more petrol conversion by the THICE but the PICE will always waste heat. 

I'm still waiting for the confirmation that my Yaris is being built. In the meantime, I muse about how much energy I am wasting. It's hilly and twisty around here. So I am anticipating good to brilliant fuel economy.

The bit that most people with no knowledge of hybrids miss, is the regeneration of Battery charge when breaking or coasting.

1 hour ago, AJones said:

I've also seen a lot of EV enthusiasts grumbling about PHEVs without much appreciation of how they operate, they seem to assume that once the battery runs out PHEVs essentially start up the engine and run like a regular petrol car, rather than running as an efficient hybrid. 

At least one press report, I saw it in the grauniad, reported a study showing horrible real world performance, especially for CO2 emissions from 3 PHEV tested (BMW, Volvo & Mitsubishi, IIRC). That said, my neighbour has a PHEV, and claims that in puttering around town he never uses any petrol.

[Catlover]

A friend of mine has a 5 year old Ford Focus. I have had the Prius 3 years, and hybrids for 4 years. I tell him what mpg I doing, and he says, ah yes but that is instantaneous mpg. On that point, when he in the Prius and I show him mpg at , say, 70mpg, I say if that is an instantaneous reading if I put my foot down hard the mpg should plummet, so I do that and, of course, the reading does not move. Still doesn’t move him!                  
Others say”just think how much you will have to pay to replace the (hybrid) battery”……… “erm, Toyota put on a warranty up to 15 years”, is my reply. Doesn’t seem to register.        
So I keep driving my Prius with a big smile on my face. 😁

[Stopeter44]

@Catlover You can lead a horse to water ....

 

Some people just don't want to change their minds about anything !

[RickyC]

3 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Talking about hybrids, we have to note that only Toyota made hybrid system is worth any consideration if you after real benefit from the hybrid system in a long run, these drives the best and lasts the longest, and cost the least to maintain. Basically the cars of the future should be all electric and wherever are an ice cars in use should be Toyota hybrids. Seriously if you about a new car now and you are not ready to go full ev there is absolutely no better choice than any Toyota hybrid model, just because of the hybrid drive train. 🚗👍

Surely Toyota is the most experienced manufacturer in full hybrid technology and its PSD system is probably the less complicated and affordable in he long run due to the absence of clutches and variable gears.

But I think that also the new Honda Hybrid technology worths a serious consideration.  I know many previous Toyota users that have moved to Honda Hybrid and they're really happy. 

About Renault solution I've found very little field feedbacks, but I consider it a bit too complex and problem prone in the long run.

[NGRhodes]

4 hours ago, Roy124 said:

Let's get away from the facts 😁

Energy can be neither created nor destroyed and is merely changed in form. 

Take two cars both cold, both on the top of a hill. The ICE and the Hybrid, the latter with minimal battery and both with identical quantities of fuel energy. 

A gentle push and they both set off.  Both car ICE start up.  The HICE to warm its engine, the PICE to provide power to the brake servo. 

As they descend the THICE charges the drive battery converting petrol to amps and thermal and the motors also charge it converting potential energy to kinetic and stored too. 

The PICE simply converts petrol to thermal some required to warm the ICE, the rest is lost. 

Once the THICE has sufficient stored thermal the ICE switches off and the motor continues to store electrical energy. Let us assume the grade changes at the same time as to DB has reached stored capacity. 

As we start to climb the heavier and larger engined THICE needs more energy to reach the summit but does this using both petrol energy and stored energy.  The PICE also needs energy which comes purely from the ICE.  Being lighter it will need less petrol. 

At the summit energy consumed will have been identical. Where is the efficiency of the THICE in this case? 

The hill answer is not a fixed answer, you are over simplifying things.
Steepness and length of hill plus velocity, recovery charge rate, motor power, ICE engine power and Battery capacities are all variables that need to be known.
With sufficient Battery capacity and speed low enough to not need ICE assistance the hybrid will use significantly less fuel, which is also why Hybrids do so well in stop-start traffic.

 

[Roy124]

NGR, you REALLY wanted an essay? 😊

[furtula]

What it all comes down to is money.

People boasting awesome mpg's, but ignoring to tell you how much they pay for electricity to achieve it.

When you add the electricity bill, how much do you actually pay per 60 miles?

 

[BhxTrev]

4 hours ago, Catlover said:

A friend of mine has a 5 year old Ford Focus. I have had the Prius 3 years, and hybrids for 4 years. I tell him what mpg I doing, and he says, ah yes but that is instantaneous mpg. On that point, when he in the Prius and I show him mpg at , say, 70mpg, I say if that is an instantaneous reading if I put my foot down hard the mpg should plummet, so I do that and, of course, the reading does not move. Still doesn’t move him!                  
Others say”just think how much you will have to pay to replace the (hybrid) battery”……… “erm, Toyota put on a warranty up to 15 years”, is my reply. Doesn’t seem to register.        
So I keep driving my Prius with a big smile on my face. 😁

Hi Joe, I don’t care what anyone thinks about the Hybrid cars being no more fuel efficient than the pure ice cars. You & I know the truth but if people disagree, that’s fine with me. I know that from my experience & information I’ve had off you & others on this forum regarding our fuel efficiency, that Hybrid Toyotas are definitely more efficient than ice driven cars. I shall still drive around in a Toyota hybrid for as long as we’re allowed to before having to change to either an all electric or hydrogen fuel cell car. Besides that, I’ve been so pleased with the reliability & build quality of my cars I’ve bought off Toyota, compared with the inefficient bags of nails I’ve had the misfortune to drive in the past. I’ve got no intention of changing from Toyota & hopefully they with produce an appropriately powered car in the future. There’s nothing beats good experiences for making up your mind regarding spending money on what for most people, is the next most expensive thing you buy other than the property you live in!

[RickyC]

4 hours ago, Catlover said:

Others say”just think how much you will have to pay to replace the (hybrid) battery”……… “erm, Toyota put on a warranty up to 15 years”, is my reply. Doesn’t seem to register.        
So I keep driving my Prius with a big smile on my face. 😁

Up to 15 years?  🤔

I knew that was 5 years + 5 yearly extensions with Hybrid Check

[Heidfirst]

"15 Year Extended Warranty

Hybrid Battery reassurance. When you complete your annual Toyota Hybrid Electric Service, your Toyota is eligible for a further year or 10,000 miles of Hybrid Battery extended cover, up to a total of 15 years."

https://www.toyota.co.uk/hybrid/hybrid-ownership

[RickyC]

Wow.  I think every country has a different policy.  

In Italy the extended coverage after fifth year is limited to 5 renewals ( so a total of 10 years ) and/or 100.000 Km

[Catlover]

1 hour ago, RickyC said:

Up to 15 years?  🤔

I knew that was 5 years + 5 yearly extensions with Hybrid Check

The hybrid health check does go annually up to 15 years. If you take the Relax service option after the standard 5/3 year ends the hybrid Battery check is included. If you don’t go down the Relax route you simply pay Toyota for the Battery check, currently £45 at the dealer I go too.

Just seen you from Italy. How long is the standard warranty on a new car? In the UK it was 5 year, but from July 1st this year it has been reduced to 3 years. Relax can be taken after the end of either 5 or 3 year standard warranty.

[Catlover]

1 hour ago, furtula said:

What it all comes down to is money.

People boasting awesome mpg's, but ignoring to tell you how much they pay for electricity to achieve it.

When you add the electricity bill, how much do you actually pay per 60 miles?

 

What is your definition of “awesome” mpg.

[Roy124]

And my Toyota Hybrid adds not one penny to my electric bill. 😉

[TonyHSD]

Tbh I have been looking into other makes hybrids and so far non has come close to Toyota not only as efficiency but in all aspects. Hyundai has interesting models but they use gdi plus auxiliary belts plus clutch pack and gears, you know what I mean by all that, similar case with other manufacturers. PHEV do suits many people especially if they do commute up to their ev range but then is the point do you really need to have ice in your car just for one or two long trips a month?! Perhaps bev will be better. Toyota hybrids are simply the best ice cars with the most advanced ice and hybrid drive trains, this is what makes them different and worthy especially if you are about long term ownership or driving a lot. Less maintenance costs in comparison with other cars.  And yes they are more efficient than ice cars , ok diesels can get close or even slightly better in specific conditions like long motorway drives but that’s it once you hit the traffic jams or get into town your efficiency disappears, plus they require a lot more unnecessary maintenance and parts replacement. Here it is why Prius is till preferred car for many taxi and delivery trade. 

[Stopeter44]

2 hours ago, RickyC said:

Up to 15 years?  🤔

I knew that was 5 years + 5 yearly extensions with Hybrid Check

Toyota France is the same as Toyota Italy 5 years/100k km, then 5 extensions, also within a limit of 100k km. As far as I can tell, the Relax Warranty takes that up to a limit of 10 years or 160k km, and I note Catlover confirms that in a prior post. That is if you continue to have a regular hybrid health check with the regular service intervals.

Edited October 6, 2021 by Stopeter44
Clarity