"Hybrids can't possibly use less fuel than a conventional ICE.."

[Stopeter44]

3 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

I don’t know why other manufacturers didn’t follow and copy that drive train, then things might have been different but all tried to add some sort of electrification to their existing power trains with end results nothing but disaster and reliability lower than actually what those had been originally with only one power source. VW Jetta hybrid for example, Mercedes’ E300h, Audi Q7, everything.

How did VW, and the others get things wrong ? I read a little about the VW Jetta hybrid, apparently it was terribly unreliable in its first year 2013. This may, of course, turned the targeted buyers away from the hybrids generally. Renault would have torn down the Toyota Hybrid System before developing their e-tech hybrid.

Elsewhere, I have read that Nissan's e-power hybrid system just uses the ICE to power a generator. Sure, Toyota have been doing it longer than anyone else, so they have an evolutionary advantage, but there's reason to think that Renault's or Nissan's system could develop equally good results. 

[Cyker]

5 hours ago, Stopeter44 said:

How did VW, and the others get things wrong ? I read a little about the VW Jetta hybrid, apparently it was terribly unreliable in its first year 2013. This may, of course, turned the targeted buyers away from the hybrids generally. Renault would have torn down the Toyota Hybrid System before developing their e-tech hybrid.

Elsewhere, I have read that Nissan's e-power hybrid system just uses the ICE to power a generator. Sure, Toyota have been doing it longer than anyone else, so they have an evolutionary advantage, but there's reason to think that Renault's or Nissan's system could develop equally good results. 

 

I think they underestimated how complicated electrics are to get right in the automotive world - There's a reason why german cars have lost their reputation for reliability, and it's in a big part down to the electrical systems.

For some reason only the japanese seem to have been able to keep on top of that - Even Tesla have had loads of issues, but because they have real-time monitoring of all their cars and everything's based around the MCU they can rapidly deploy firmware patches as they go - It's one reason I'm not keen on their cars as they do everything like a software company; i.e. Get it out quick then fix it afterwards. They are definitely a Don't Buy Version 1 kind of company, just like Microsoft, Apple et al. (But at least they do fix bugs - I wish Microsoft would do that instead of releasing new features before they've fixed the old ones!! I now hate Windows 10 more than Vista and ME - That's quite an achievement!)

I honestly don't get why other manufacturers have had so much trouble - A lot of them use even simpler systems than Toyota, either just bolting an electric motor to the crankshaft or drive the other set of wheels so it's effectively AWD - Both are simpler implementations than the power split device Toyota use so why they have more problems I never really understood...!

It may also be there wasn't any enthusiasm for the power train - A lot of the hybrids and EVs by other manufacturers are seen as so-called 'compliance cars', limited run and limited support as they just build them to get their CO2 down but don't really want to deal with them as it costs them profits.

 

5 hours ago, Stopeter44 said:

Talking of head wraps. I fully get the way Toyota has evolved the original Hybrid concept, I read the wikipedia Hybrid Synergy Drive page a number of times. Each time I did, a bit more of the puzzle fell into place in my understanding. 

There's one part of the system that I don't fully understand. I understand the logical concept of the power split device, that is the planetary gear set, but I don't understand, with the MG1, MG2 & ICE connected to it, how the ICE can be stopped. Does it have some kind of freewheel system, akin to the Hub gears on my bicycle ? @TonyHSD in another thread pointed out some videos explaining how, conceptually, the Toyota system worked, but I'm still struggling with the "stopped" ICE in the setup.

Can anybody shed more light on this ?

Yeah this is a bit weird, and is related to why the older HSDs couldn't go above a certain speed without the ICE running.

It's all about MG1 - When MG2 is moving, MG1 counter-spins to keep the ICE's part of the planetary gear set stationary. If ICE power is needed, MG1 spins to get it started, then either spins with/against it or gently opposes it depending on if the car wants to direct power to the wheels or the Battery. MG1 continuously changes RPM when the ICE is running, and is why people think the HSD is a CVT - It can hold the ICE at 2000rpm and change the MG1's RPM to transmit the ICE's rotation at whatever speed is required, or hold its own RPM and ramp up the ICE instead, or just let itself be spun by the ICE to generate power, depending on what the ECU wants. It boggles the mind watching how MG1, MG2 and the ICE's RPMs change depending on load and speed!

So I mentioned the speed limit earlier - In the older HSDs, when you got to 30-40mph, MG2 was spinning so fast that MG1 couldn't reverse-spin any faster, so the ICE's gear would *have* to start moving - This is still the case in the newer ones, but Toyota put in a reduction gear which raises the limit to ~80mph IIRC.

This is also why the ICE can't be used when reversing as MG1 would have to spin much faster the wrong way to transmit drive into MG2!

It all looks very complicated, and when you look at it you think how can this possibly work, but somehow it does, and reliably too!

There were some great flash animations you could use to explore and understand it better, by controlling each bit and seeing how the other bits reacted, but sadly because of the Flashocalypse a lot of that stuff has been lost  

 

P.S.> I don't know how much of this is your doing frosty, but I blow wet sloppy kisses to whoever implemented the post saving feature on this forum! I accidentally closed the window and was like FFFFFFFFFF, but when I went back there was my half-written post!   Thankyooouuuuu!!

 

[Stopeter44]

@Cyker That's a great post there, and it certainly helped me understand the interaction between MG1/ICE. TonyHSD pointed me to a training video that explains the MG1/ICE interaction but I didn't get the reverse rotation of MG1 wrt ICE.

Don't you just love clever engineering ! 

[AndrueC]

As regards other manufacturers I'm still in contact with my old Honda Jazz crowd and from what they are reporting the new Hybrid Jazz is slightly better than my Corolla. Almost everyone is reporting high 60s, low 70s mpg.

It has better acceleration (sub 10s 0-60 time) but less power (107 bhp). I don't like the look of it but assuming that it still has the 'Tardis like' storage I'd have to say that it's a better vehicle on paper.

Now just for the record I love my Corolla and I do not like the styling of the Jazz so I'm not about to pivot back to Honda. But still - I'd have to refute the claim that other manufacturers have got hybrid technology wrong. It might have taken a few attempts and several years but Honda currently have a better hybrid vehicle for the small family.

FWIW the Honda hybrid system is very different. It is exclusively electric at low speeds with the ICE only running to recharge the Battery. At higher speeds the ICE takes over exclusively.

[Stopeter44]

Just now, AndrueC said:

Now just for the record I love my Corolla and I do not like the styling of the Jazz so I'm not about to pivot back to Honda. But still - I'd have to refute the claim that other manufacturers have got hybrid technology wrong. It might have taken a few attempts and several years but Honda currently having a better hybrid vehicle for the small family.

FWIW the Honda hybrid system is very different. It is exclusively petrol at low speeds with the ICE only running to recharge the battery. At higher speeds the ICE takes over exclusively.

French auto press compared Yaris IV/Jazz/Clio hybrids. They all had something to offer. The problem for me, with Honda, was that the nearest dealer is at least an hour away, and not one of them is conveniently off an autoroute. Toyota's dealer network was a big plus.

BTW, is there a typo in your post.

[Cyker]

That's interesting Andrue - When I was looking at potential future cars I was considering the Jazz as it's the Mk4's nearest competitor; I thought the drivetrains were similar! The units looked very similar in the technology videos I'd seen, with one of the main differences being that Jazz's ICE gets coupled to the wheels at higher speeds to reduce losses, which the Mk4 doesn't do.

I will say the Jazz has a more practical interior than the Mk4 - It's more like the Mk1 and Mk2 in that it has loads of closeable storage and trick rear seats, which I really miss in the Mk4! Being able to slide the rear seats back gave the Mk1 and Mk2 more rear leg room than some SUV/crossovers!  

What swung it for me was the Mk4 is slightly smaller, more efficient, much nicer to drive and had the optional HUD. It also looks a lot better and will be, I suspect, more reliable...!

 

[AndrueC]

2 minutes ago, Cyker said:

What swung it for me was the Mk4 is slightly smaller, more efficient, much nicer to drive and had the optional HUD. It also looks a lot better and will be, I suspect, more reliable...!

Reliability was a big factor in me moving away from Honda. To be fair after my first two Jazz they had a high bar to maintain but they failed. It never actually let me down but it developed various niggling issues and the dealer seemed indifferent. One example: Toward the end of my ownership the door mirrors started randomly rotating in and out while I was driving. The dealer said there was nothing they could do (even under warranty) until they failed completely.

The other reason I switched to my Corolla is because Honda were too tardy in releasing the hybrid version. Having seen what they finally produced it's a good question whether I'd have wanted to be seen around town in something that looks like it came out of a children's cartoon 🙂

[Cyker]

Yeah, these B-segment hybrids have certainly been a long time coming, but for me they came along just in the nick of time! I was despairing what to move to as I really wanted something sub-4m long, but with comparable/better mpg than my old Mk1 D4D but there was literally nothing out there that wasn't diesel, and that wasn't an option due to the ULEZocalypse.

I have been saving for over a decade for an EV, but IMHO all the current EVs are just toys or have very narrow use-cases and totally unsuitable for me - At current progress I'm not expecting something suitable for another 10 years at this rate!

I'm almost grateful at how badly my dealer flubbed the diagnostics on the Mk2 I had (and hated!) or I might not have had the push to get the Mk4! The money still stings - It's literally the most expensive thing I've bought in my entire life!   But it's such a good car that I haven't had the buyers remorse I was expecting to feel!  

 

[AJones]

6 hours ago, Stopeter44 said:

There's one part of the system that I don't fully understand. I understand the logical concept of the power split device, that is the planetary gear set, but I don't understand, with the MG1, MG2 & ICE connected to it, how the ICE can be stopped. Does it have some kind of freewheel system, akin to the Hub gears on my bicycle ? @TonyHSD in another thread pointed out some videos explaining how, conceptually, the Toyota system worked, but I'm still struggling with the "stopped" ICE in the setup.

Can anybody shed more light on this ?

There's a Youtube video showing a hybrid transaxle dismantled and a discussion of all the parts, operation etc. It's very thorough, the section on overall operation starts at 1hr 40mins, see if that covers it.

 

 

[AndrueC]

I want my next car to be full EV but I'm holding my breath. I don't have an issue with distance because most of my journeys are below 50 miles (as are most people's I suspect) and I can easily install a charger in my garage.

However I do need something that can carry all my golf gear (something the Corolla only just manages). I looked at the Prius PHEV a year or so ago but the boot space is woefully inadequate.

So for now I'm just hoping that without an ICE taking up space in the front Toyota will be able to produce an EV that has a decent sized boot.

[BhxTrev]

Help! Can somebody tell me how I turn off notifications on this topic? There are that many comments it’s filling up my inbox & even though I’ve turned off ‘follow the topic’ I still continue to get notifications. Frosty any idea?

[TonyHSD]

12 minutes ago, AndrueC said:

I want my next car to be full EV but I'm holding my breath. I don't have an issue with distance because most of my journeys are below 50 miles (as are most people's I suspect) and I can easily install a charger in my garage.

However I do need something that can carry all my golf gear (something the Corolla only just manages). I looked at the Prius PHEV a year or so ago but the boot space is woefully inadequate.

So for now I'm just hoping that without an ICE taking up space in the front Toyota will be able to produce an EV that has a decent sized boot.

Vw id3 or ionic fulfils the requirements imo., same price as Corolla. This ionic may not look as prettiest car out there , similar to  Prius but it’s so comfy and nice to drive ., I looked at the hybrid version for myself but been put off by their hybrid tech and gdi engine, ok for the first 3-5 years with most users but not for me though. , in rather buy a Prius . 😉

[Trewithy]

I am a bit of a Jazz fan having had a Mk1 and a Mk2.  I had a look at the Mk4 but the floor area of the boot was too small for my needs and there was no height adjustment on the passengers seat, my wife said she felt as if she was sitting on the floor.  I think Honda's hybrid system is good and has one advantage over the Yaris of having a 4 cylinder engine. 

[priusnoob]

On 10/6/2021 at 7:50 AM, AJones said:

Haven't encountered people claiming hybrids are no more efficient. 

I've seen people complaining about the 'self charging hybrid' claims, that it gives the impression they are comparable with electric cars but without the need to charge, rather than simply more efficient petrol cars.

I've also seen a lot of EV enthusiasts grumbling about PHEVs without much appreciation of how they operate, they seem to assume that once the battery runs out PHEVs essentially start up the engine and run like a regular petrol car, rather than running as an efficient hybrid. 

I'm not fond of the self charging hybrid claims too. I first saw this last year, and I was like "What's that?" Then I realised that it's marketing bs. They simply called them hybrids for years before that. They're not like EVs or even PHEVs

[Cyker]

One thing that makes me laugh is all the EV folk, including Robert Llewellyn, Red Dwarf mechanoid and rabid EV evangelist, went to town slating Toyota for being deceptive for coming up with the whole self-charging marketing spin, but he is the first person I recall using the term when he was being a prius evangelist in his Carpool series, and which predates the Toyota marketing spin by near a decade!  

 

[Joseph D]

10 hours ago, BhxTrev said:

Help! Can somebody tell me how I turn off notifications on this topic? There are that many comments it’s filling up my inbox & even though I’ve turned off ‘follow the topic’ I still continue to get notifications. Frosty any idea?

Drop down your profile settings at the top right above, then select 'Manage Followed Content' option.  Find this thread title and then select the 'Change Preference' dropdown.

I'm not sure if that will help, but that's all I have.

[BhxTrev]

Hi Joseph, thanks for your help. I’ve managed to stop the notifications on this topic. The amount of traffic meant I was getting so many email notifications, my in box was filling up fast & it was becoming difficult to read so many comments hence I wanted to stop them. Thanks again. 

[FROSTYBALLS]

16 hours ago, BhxTrev said:

Can somebody tell me how I turn off notifications on this topic?

Sorry I missed this. Yes, Joseph D is correct. You can change which topics you follow by going into Account Settings via the username drop down menu, and then Manage Followed Content.

Personally I don't follow any content - I get enough notifications of members quoting me.

[Roy124]

Way off topic but I don't get email notifications even when supposedly following a topic. 

Not to worry, not about to start now. 

[Catlover]

By choice I don’t get any notifications. When I come on the forum I press the “what’s new” button and get every update over the whole forum.