17" wheels and 225/45/17 tyres - is excessive road noise inevitable or is it fixable?

[ATF1979]

Hi,

My new 2017 1.2T Excel has what I would call excessive road noise on it's 17" low profiles, it has Cheap Nexen XL tyres on the front which I guess do not help, but would simply switching to much better tyres make that much difference to road noise?

Or is the real fix to switch to 16" wheels with 205/55/16 tyres?

On my previous Mazda 3, I switched from 18" to 16" wheels and the improvement was huge - far more comfortable ride and far less noise, but I am wondering how much was down to the smaller wheel/tyre combination and how much down to better tyres?

Any help much appreciated, there is so much conflicting advice out there.

cheers, Steve, (BTW - I know about the insurance issues)

[Catlover]

So when you went from 18” to 16” on the Mazda 3 was it the same tyre detail?            
Yes, going down size will make a difference to ride comfort - more sidewall gives more flex ie more suspension.

[ATF1979]

It was impossible to have the same tyres as Mazda specify unusual sizes.

The factory tyres were Dunlop SP Sport Maxx 18" 215/45/18 and I had switched to 16" Goodyear Efficient Grip Performance 2 as 205/60/16.

The 16" were a vast improvement - it shocked me - far more supple ride, especially over poor roads, speed bumps, but the real shock was a vast decrease in road noise.

[Catlover]

When you go to a good tyre website supplier you will see ratings for tyres in terms of quietness, wet grip, and economy (fuel).  I don’t know about the Dunlop SP but the Goodyear you list has very good rating for all three factor quietness, wet grip and economy.  I suggest you look closely at this factor when you next purchasing tyres. Dont let a tyre garage push you towards a tyre, it’s probably giving them a good profit. Do your homework and you stipulate what you want. Most good tyre sites let you have a large choice and they will get them to a tyre fitter somewhere fairly close to you.

[Rosgoe]

I think it is down to the lower profile tyres not so much the diameter I have 225/40/18 on my corolla and the road noise is much more significant than the auris I had which had 205/55/16.

I have spoken to a tyre fitter and he said the larger diameter tyres will make the ride harsher but not so much the noise that is down to the lower profile tyres.

when you go to buy new tyres if poss you want to go by the noise in the cabin as the noise tests are a drive by rating some motoring magazines to a tyre test with ratings for grip etc and the noise it generates in the cabin.

[Catlover]

43 minutes ago, Rosgoe said:

I think it is down to the lower profile tyres not so much the diameter I have 225/40/18 on my corolla and the road noise is much more significant than the auris I had which had 205/55/16.

I have spoken to a tyre fitter and he said the larger diameter tyres will make the ride harsher but not so much the noise that is down to the lower profile tyres.

when you go to buy new tyres if poss you want to go by the noise in the cabin as the noise tests are a drive by rating some motoring magazines to a tyre test with ratings for grip etc and the noise it generates in the cabin.

and where do you get the info re noise in the cabin.?

[Cyker]

I did a similar thing - The higher specs of the Mk4 Yaris force ridiculous 17" rims on you - I hated them immediately and had some 15" rims fitted instead; Like you I found a huge improvement in NVH!

I think the rim size and tyre both contribute to the noise levels; With tyres it's a combination of rubber hardness and the shape of the tread pattern, as they can focus sound away from the car or into it. Tread blocks also make more noise than continuous bands.

The smaller rims/higher profile changes the frequency resonance - I found when I switched to 15's the road noise was a lower pitch than on the 17s, which helps mask it.

 

15 minutes ago, Catlover said:

and where do you get the info re noise in the cabin.?

He's just saying you can't use the sound rating of tyres to know how loud they will be to you, as they measure the external noise, not the cabin noise. Unfortunately there isn't any good source of information for that - The only useful source I've found is to read owner reviews of similar-sized tyres on TyreReviews.com.

They show that the sizes does matter as I recall one tyre having two people with completely opposite views on the tyre noise, despite it being the same tyre; The only difference was the sizes

 

There's literally no good reason for bigger rims unless you're building a track weapon or show car - They look stupid, the tyres are more expensive, they make the car slower, they're more prone to pothole and kerb damage, and they make the ride objectively worse!

 

[Rosgoe]

37 minutes ago, Catlover said:

and where do you get the info re noise in the cabin.?

Was an article in auto express and some other motoring magazines do it from time to time and as cyker has said you can get that info from tyre reviews such as black circles.

[TonyHSD]

Tyre noise is fixable with 17” wheels to some extent if you fit more suitable tyres but for best results going down to 16” wheels  you will get more comfy ride too, less noise and less vibrations., plus wider choice and cheaper tyre prices. Have you thought about all season tyres like Michelin cross climate or Goodyear vector 4 season instead of going down in size? .,  these V shaped thread patterns cushions better rough surfaces than typical summer tyres with straight lines for water drainage which usually are quieter on smooth asphalt. Maybe a good idea to make a note on what type of surface you are driving mostly and take into account that too . If motorways are rough common for UK, all season tyres can make the car quieter even on 17” wheels vs 16” with summer tyres, where if you’re  driving on smooth surface the summer straight line tyres like GY egp2 will be definitely quieter.

I have winter tyres fitted to my oem 17” wheels and the car with them drives smoother and softer on rough roads  than the 16” wheels with egp2 . On smooth new asphalt the 16” egp2 makes the car as quiet as premium upper class car, no joke.👍 

[DAN@ADRIAN FLUX]

Hi.

If you need any help with insurance at all then please feel free to drop me a line.

Regards,

Dan.

[ATF1979]

Thanks to all!

Cyker - some questions:

Did your Toyota main dealer change the wheels for you and were the 15" wheels an 'official' option with your car? Also, does you car have TPMS?

My Excel does and I an wondering if that has any bearing on using smaller wheels?

[rajivrattna]

It is fixable with tyres that have a lower db ratings. See my answer in the other similar thread.

[Cyker]

Careful with that - I found tyres with lower noise ratings were actually louder on the car!! Remember, the noise rating is for how loud the tyres are for people outside the car, e.g. pedestrians; It's not a measurement of how noisy it will be to the people in the car!

@ATF1979 - Ha so that was a faff - The dealer I bought the car from basically refused to put 15"s on the car, saying 15" rims wouldn't fit on the car, and offered to quote for 16" alloys instead. I tried hunting around for some, but none of the London dealers I tried nor Toyota GB were able to get me specs of the wheels (Offset, width, CB etc etc.).  I knew the Euro and Irish-spec cars can have 15's, and tried emailing the various parts departments and Toyota GB for part numbers but none of them were any help either (Either couldn't find any or just no reply!).

I thought of PartsKing on here, as he's always been super helpful in the past and sent him a PM - lo and behold he got back to me with part numbers in no time at all! Along with a caution about how the nuts were different between the alloys and steel rims, and recommended I get the steel-specific nuts too. I still sing his praises - Wish every dealer had his levels of customer service!! It sucks that his dealership is too far for me to go to, as the delivery costs for something so big and heavy would be pretty painful, so had to go back to the slightly more reliable dealer of my 2 nearest, and give them the part numbers; After some faffing they were able to find the parts on the system (Apparently they didn't find them before because they aren't listed under the UK but are for Ireland and Cyprus??), and got everything ordered. Took about 2 weeks for everything to arrive, and longer to fit as they were booked solid (Was just as the garages were re-opening so everyone trying to get their car MOT'd/serviced!)

I had them swap everything over including the TPMS sensors, as replacement ones would have cost close to the new rims AND new tyres put together (!). TPMS sensors were re-coded (Don't know why as they were just being swapped over but whatever...), and aside from them apparently forgetting to inflate the left hand side of the car properly (Both passenger-side tyres were less than 20psi! Only discovered when I got home as the TPMS sensors hadn't sync'ed in yet due to being recoded!), everything was fine. Everything's been fine since too - Definitely glad I did it as it's made the car much better to be in than on the 17"s!

The swap is counted as an after market change, definitely not official since they don't even seem to know you can have 15" rims on a Mk4! Thankfully because I switched to steel rims, none of the insurance companies I spoke to could register it as a modification and charge me more, as apparently going to smaller steel rims is just not a thing on any of their systems!  (Any combination of wider, bigger or alloy yes, but smaller narrower steel, no!) So I was able to have them without a increase in premium, but I have made them note that they are happy for them to be on the car under my customer details just in case. Also checked with Toyota GB and they confirmed the warranty would be unaffected except for any problems directly caused by the new wheels.

All-in, the rims and tyres came to about £600 - New TPMS sensors would have been another £570-ish (!)

 

[ATF1979]

Blimey Cyker, what a game.

I have bitten the bullet - just ordered a set of 16" OEM alloys from a Toyota main dealer, made sure they are current to my 2017 Auris.

Do you think I should get tyres/wheels fitted by a Main Toyota dealer, or just pop to kwik-fit?

The swap over with my Mazda was no problem at all and that had TPMS swapped over to the smaller wheels.

[Cyker]

Ya the TPMS shouldn't be a problem.

For the tyres, maybe shop around for prices then get the dealer to pricematch your best quote?

[MagicBoy]

For what it's worth ... I'm still (just) on the factory Dunlop SP Sport 17"s. No noise issues with them. 

[ATF1979]

Maybe Cheshire has lots of lovely smooth roads? I live near Birmingham and many roads are bad. Even newly re-surfaced ones near us are dreadful.

Cyker - any idea what re-coding the TPMS actually meant? did they need to re-calibrate to a different PSI for the new smaller tyres?

My Mazda had a button on the dash, which the driver could just press after changing PSI to re-set the sensors.

On the Auris, the 17" and 16" tyres have the same PSI, so I guess that negates any resetting issue?

[Cyker]

TBH no, they just said they recoded them but I don't see how they could have since they're already coded to the car! I assume they just reset them - That would explain why they didn't trigger a warning about the tyres being underinflated!

I don't think it was necessary anyway and just confused the system until it re-synced.

The only reason you might, other than resetting the base tyre pressures, is if the system needs resetting to figure out which sensor is on which wheel, but the Mk4 Yaris at least seems to go through a detection cycle every time it's turned on so even that might not be necessary!

[MagicBoy]

On 10/11/2021 at 7:24 PM, ATF1979 said:

Maybe Cheshire has lots of lovely smooth roads? I live near Birmingham and many roads are bad. Even newly re-surfaced ones near us are dreadful.

 

 

Depends on which bit of Cheshire! 🤣  Generally it's not too bad IME.

Bits of Cheshire East council areas are terrible. Greater Manchester it varies wildly between the ten council areas. You can cross a boundary and suddenly a nice road turns into something out of a war movie. Some like Trafford hate spending money on roads, others like Stockport are way better.

The only bit of road that's done my head in is a concrete section of the M180 up near Grimsby. But that's generally bad in everything...