PHEV - reduced performance if seldom plug-in charging?

[Weeyun]

Hi all,

I have searched the forum but couldn't find an answer on this (perhaps it is obvious :) )

If I never (or seldom) plug-in to charge, will the PHEV still have full hp/performance as it will hold a percentage of the Battery in reserve that can be used with the ICE?  I live in a location where I cant charge at home, but this may change, which is why I am interested in a PHEV rather than the standard hybrid (and also the performance benefits). 

Thanks!

[ernieb]

Yes, the traction Battery retains 30% of the capacity to ensure that in HEV mode the performance the car is not compromised.

There is a mode in the PHEV that will also charge the Battery from the ICE but it’s not a very effective way to do this.  I’ve found once I’ve used all the user traction Battery the car retains the 30% either by regeneration or automatically from the ICE. Under good conditions, long downhill sections and management of the braking the car will recover a few miles of pure EV mode.  The car automatically switches to Auto EV/HEV mode.

This I hope answers your question but if there is no chance of being able to charge the traction battery then you might be better considering the Hybrid model.  That said, the PHEV is a great all round car to drive.

[Weeyun]

Brilliant. Thanks for the quick response. I think this has confirmed the PHEV :)

[Catlover]

Seems the PHEV is costing a few thousands more to purchase for something you may not use.

[ColinB]

The other problem with the PHEV is the extra £335 a year vehicle tax, I don't even spend that on petrol....... 

[Flatcoat]

If you are not regularly charging I am not sure there is much benefit over the HEV. 

[philip42h]

The petrol engines in the HEV and the PHEV are identical, but the PHEV has a more powerful front motor - providing improved performance and consuming more charge. The obvious consequence is that, in self-charging mode, the PHEV has the potential to be rather less economical than the HEV.

If you rarely use the extra performance and generally drive with a light right foot then  you should be able to get similar economy out of both - with the lighter HEV winning out overall.

The PHEV wins if you charge it regularly or, as a company car driver, look to take advantage of the BIK benefits.

[Sealiedog]

There's a 360kg weight difference too. 

[ernieb]

It’s definitely heavy but the cog is very low and gives a very stable drive. I also wonder in snow type weather with a heavy weight effectively over both axels it will give a more stable drive?

[Flatcoat]

The engine outputs are different in the PHEV (slightly higher BHP and torque) to the HEV. Not much but still there. 

[philip42h]

2 hours ago, Flatcoat said:

The engine outputs are different in the PHEV (slightly higher BHP and torque) to the HEV. Not much but still there. 

While that is certainly true, I'm not sure that the petrol engine differences are that significant ...

The HEV quotes 176 bhp at 5,700 rpm and 221 Nm between 3,600 and 5,200 rpm while the PHEV quotes 182 bhp at 6,000 rpm and 227 Nm between 3,200 and 3,700 rpm.

But the real difference is in the front electric motors with the HEV quoting 88 kW and 202 Nm and the PHEV quoting 134 kW and 270 Nm meaning that the system outputs equate to 219 bhp for the HEV and 302 bhp for the PHEV.

[Weeyun]

Thanks for all the responses. What a lovely and active forum!

The additional power of the PHEV is currently more attractive to me than the plug-in part. I have also read that it is just a much nicer driving experience overall. Of-course this only matters if the PHEV performs equally well when not plugged in.

This Top Gear review does suggest that the Battery will fully deplete with only the ICE left:

"The Curse of the PHEV is once you’ve depleted its Battery, you’ve got a 2,000kg lump – including a chunk of useless Battery ballast – hauled by a reedy, overworked engine. You and the RAV4 will very quickly go off one another if you ever dare to drop the charge needle into the red. You have been warned."

I now believe this won't happen?

[Flatcoat]

I suggest you read the Diesel car and Autocar long term reviews of the Across. Same car just with Suzuki badging. 

[philip42h]

34 minutes ago, Weeyun said:

Thanks for all the responses. What a lovely and active forum!

The additional power of the PHEV is currently more attractive to me than the plug-in part. I have also read that it is just a much nicer driving experience overall. Of-course this only matters if the PHEV performs equally well when not plugged in.

This Top Gear review does suggest that the battery will fully deplete with only the ICE left:

"The Curse of the PHEV is once you’ve depleted its battery, you’ve got a 2,000kg lump – including a chunk of useless battery ballast – hauled by a reedy, overworked engine. You and the RAV4 will very quickly go off one another if you ever dare to drop the charge needle into the red. You have been warned."

I now believe this won't happen?

The Top Gear review also states: "The petrol engine is a mite less powerful than in a mild-hybrid RAV4" when we know that:

1. The petrol engine in the PHEV is a tiny mite more powerful not less, and
2. Toyota don't make a mild-hybrid RAV4 - it's a full self-charging hybrid

I wouldn't put much store in that review!

That said, to get the full benefit of the 'more power' you need to have charge in the Battery, and, if you don't charge it from the mains, you will need to run the petrol engine as a generator to top-up the Battery. And that's OK since you only use the 'more power' relatively occasionally ... don't you? 😉

[nlee]

The way I understand it, you can almost treat it as 2 separate batteries. One (30%) acts just like the HEV. The other (70%) just allows about 40-45 miles of EV only. The motors deliver the same power whether on the EV or HEV mode so you will always get the full power when needed (less when in EV only mode but in auto, it will run EV then the ICE will kick in to give the extra power if you put your foot down). 

I did a test drive in both and the difference was stark. The PHEV was a much better drive for me.

Yes the argument will always stand that once the EV part of the Battery is depleted you have a bit of extra weight to carry. Not that I could tell the difference and the economy is still very good as HV only

[ernieb]

12 minutes ago, nlee said:

The way I understand it, you can almost treat it as 2 separate batteries. One (30%) acts just like the HEV. The other (70%) just allows about 40-45 miles of EV only. The motors deliver the same power whether on the EV or HEV mode so you will always get the full power when needed (less when in EV only mode but in auto, it will run EV then the ICE will kick in to give the extra power if you put your foot down). 

I did a test drive in both and the difference was stark. The PHEV was a much better drive for me.

Yes the argument will always stand that once the EV part of the battery is depleted you have a bit of extra weight to carry. Not that I could tell the difference and the economy is still very good as HV only

I think you’ve got it right on the nose.  The fact of the matter is that it’s easy to worry about the extra weight of the partially depleted Battery but that will always be the case with any EV as you use the energy the weight is the same unlike a petrol or diesel car, they get lighter as the fuel is used. The spec of the car is for the weight of the car whether the Battery if charged or depleted but the performance is still also as per the spec.  I really don’t figure I’m carrying around a depleted Battery it’s part of the package.

[Flatcoat]

This also illustrates the difference between Toyota and some of the cheaper PHEV offerings which do not have that built-in buffer. I spent an inordinate amount of time researching PHEV’s over summer before plumping for the RAV. (Albeit without the recent price drop not sure what I would have chosen). We tow long distances often into Austria so that back-up is almost essential for us. I am not sure many of the similar priced or cheaper offerings have the same feature. Volvo is probably one of the few who get close.