New RAV4 PHEV owner

[Bc sussex]

Hi all,

just joined the forum whilst I search for useful information about my impending car arrival. I did a little post in the new members section but thought I would post here as well, as this is where I am really interested. 

just coming out of a 2.5 year old Skoda Kodiaq. I wasn’t planning on changing quite so soon but the insane prices being offered for second hand cars has convinced me to upgrade. 

I had some criteria for the new car, as I get a decent car allowance from work. It needed to be 4x4 and 5 door, and under 190mg co2. 

I have been toying with pure EVs but I didn’t think I was quite ready for that so some extensive research later, I think the PHEV is going to be the car for me. 

I anticipate I will be able to do something like 70% of all my journeys on Battery alone, and then when I need the HEV mode, I am looking for considerably more than the 37-40 mpg that the Skoda gives me at the moment. Plus the 20p a mile I will get from work based on HMRC rates for a petrol engine greater than 2l vs the 11p per mile I get for the diesel (the Skoda costs about 16p a mile if anyone was interested). We will be getting some 7kw chargers in the work car park soon as well, with charge being billed to us at the commercial rate the company gets. 
 

Exciting times. Hopefully I have made the right decision. 

[ernieb]

Hi Ben and welcome to the forum.  I came from a number of Skoda cars via a Subaru and as you will find the PHEV is a great car to drive. I also manage to do a relatively large percentage of my mileage using the traction Battery and EV mode and use a mains charger at home to change over night.

 

[CBphev]

I pick mine up on Saturday, coming from an old mitsubishi diesel.  I am in a similar boat, hoping to charge at work using newly installed 7kw chargers (hoping they will be free!) and if not, charge overnight via 3 pin plug.  THere are also free chargers at the train station 3 miles away, thinking I can walk the dog whilst it charges - but the car park does say for station users only - wonder if they would ever try to stop me seeing as though its an unmanned station!!

[spicyhotone]

Hi Ben - I also moved from a Kodiaq - had mine a couple of months now. Generally loving it. I think we'll miss the extra boot space come summer holiday travelling - but any small irritations about the car are outweighed by being able to run EV for most of my driving - and enjoying the HV performance & economy on longer trips. We get free EV charging at work, which makes it very economical to run!

[satts67]

19 hours ago, CBphev said:

I pick mine up on Saturday, coming from an old mitsubishi diesel.  I am in a similar boat, hoping to charge at work using newly installed 7kw chargers (hoping they will be free!) and if not, charge overnight via 3 pin plug.  THere are also free chargers at the train station 3 miles away, thinking I can walk the dog whilst it charges - but the car park does say for station users only - wonder if they would ever try to stop me seeing as though its an unmanned station!!

An unmanned station but with cameras everywhere. It would be long before someone picked up on it.

[Catlover]

It would be sad if whilst your walking your dog/charging your car someone actually using the railway couldn’t charge their car.

[CBphev]

On 10/18/2021 at 4:23 PM, Catlover said:

It would be sad if whilst your walking your dog/charging your car someone actually using the railway couldn’t charge their car.

Agreed but there are 24 charging points and I have never seen more than 2 cars in the car park - Its a new local train station so they put in loads of chargers, I guess to make future proof!

I also suspect they would pick up on my plan - if they really wanted to!  

[Catlover]

24 charging points in what seems to be a small station. Strewth, that seems over the top.

[ernieb]

That’s what will be needed if we really are to move over from fossil fuels, good bit of future proofing.

[Catlover]

I take your point Ernie. But wouldn’t it be better to ensure the infrastructure is their for future proofing, but just ensure above ground facilities available for now/what they foresee for the next 2.3+years. I thinking of the damage by vandalism.

[ernieb]

Agree with that sentiment Joe based on some of the reviews I’ve seen of people undertaking trips of 300 + miles, I’m amazed how many chargers  are not so much vandalised but just have failed.  The designs do not appear to very robust. One recent review I saw the guy pulled up to a motorway array of 8 chargers and only 3 were operational.

The overall infrastructure just needs to be addressed especially home charging for those who do not have private access to a drive or garage.

[Catlover]

What is worrying me is this… with home chargers, for those cars that can take a fast charge, that owners come home and plug in on a fast charge (when 10 hour charge would be ok) only to blow the whole neighbourhood and lights out for everyone. That’s not going to go down well and vandalism of cars after midnight could jump up.

[ernieb]

If people schedule the charge for a time when they need the car rather than charge now then most would charge overnight when there is a surplus of electrical generation. I do this with my 240v granny cable and it takes roughly 7h 30m to complete but only takes 10 amps max.  The mode 2 fast charger 7.4Kw (32A) is roughly 2h 30m 

[nlee]

34 minutes ago, Catlover said:

What is worrying me is this… with home chargers, for those cars that can take a fast charge, that owners come home and plug in on a fast charge (when 10 hour charge would be ok) only to blow the whole neighbourhood and lights out for everyone. That’s not going to go down well and vandalism of cars after midnight could jump up.

As I mentioned in other posts, it only really makes financial sense with a PHEV to use a 7.4kw charger if you are going to make use of an off-peak or half hourly tariff. That would push most users into low demand on the grid or even to shed excess load (believe it or not, there are some tariffs where under certain circumstances you can actually get paid to charge or use electricity because there's too much! See Octopus Agile. Unfortunately not with the current situation)

I believe that is proposed from next April that internet connected wall chargers will be blocked in the morning and evening peak on weekdays to avoid peak demand under new regulations. Shouldn't be a big issue for most as it is only 2x 2.5 hours per day and ensures most charging takes place without topping up the grid with non-renewables.

[Flatcoat]

4 hours ago, Catlover said:

What is worrying me is this… with home chargers, for those cars that can take a fast charge, that owners come home and plug in on a fast charge (when 10 hour charge would be ok) only to blow the whole neighbourhood and lights out for everyone. That’s not going to go down well and vandalism of cars after midnight could jump up.

The grid doesn’t work like that, if there is insufficient capacity and you cannot have a charger installed. You also need a 3 phase supply too for faster charging and not all homes have that.  There are already plenty of situations where nothing other than a slow home chargers could be installed. I am one of the many cynics when it comes to greenies brave new world but I am not into social media myths either.

[nlee]

It depends on what you mean by a fast charger. You can have a 7.4kw on a single phase supply but you might need to have the main fuse uprated to 100a and possibly the meter tails if in an older house. Anything above, you're right you need a 3-phase supply. You can request this for free from your DNO but it probably quite disruptive work.

[ernieb]

I checked out upgrading the mains supply fuse a few days ago and it is possible but comes with the caveats that they would check out your electrics and these would likely need to be upgraded to the latest standards.  The costs for this can be pretty substantial..

https://www.ukpowernetworks.co.uk/electricity/fuse-upgrade

[nlee]

I know you're reasonably happy with sticking with the 10a 3 pin charger Ernie but there are other options if you did want a charging point and didn't want to upgrade the main fuse.

Some of the new charge points have load balancing and the peak current is adjustable. Basically, uses a current monitoring clamp on the main feed and it will drop the current on the charger to account for other high load you have at any time to prevent blowing the fuse. I guess all will be like this in future.

The obvious downside is the more often it drops the current the longer it will take to carry out the charge. A 7.4kw charger is around 32a so in theory it could still operate at full power when there are not too many other hungry appliances running. You can also get a 3.6kw charger which only needs 16a but I guess that would be mainly for convenience of a fixed point as the charging speed wouldn't be much improved on the 3 pin.

You have options without ripping all your electrics out!

[ernieb]

1 hour ago, nlee said:

I know you're reasonably happy with sticking with the 10a 3 pin charger Ernie but there are other options if you did want a charging point and didn't want to upgrade the main fuse.

Some of the new charge points have load balancing and the peak current is adjustable. Basically, uses a current monitoring clamp on the main feed and it will drop the current on the charger to account for other high load you have at any time to prevent blowing the fuse. I guess all will be like this in future.

The obvious downside is the more often it drops the current the longer it will take to carry out the charge. A 7.4kw charger is around 32a so in theory it could still operate at full power when there are not too many other hungry appliances running. You can also get a 3.6kw charger which only needs 16a but I guess that would be mainly for convenience of a fixed point as the charging speed wouldn't be much improved on the 3 pin.

You have options without ripping all your electrics out!

Agree with all of what you’ve said and right now I’m thinking of asking to upgrade the main incoming fuze it’s very low at present. Where I’m coming from is that my next car will very likely be a pure EV and that would likely need a 22Kw charger and 3 phase mains, that would be a major change at our house.  I’d probably run to a 7.4Kw charger with load balancing right now but the cost is way beyond what I think is reasonable especially as it has to be connected by an accredited professional. I can get a lot of charges and rage for the current costs. If the installation grants were what they used to be then that would make it worth while.

[satts67]

13 hours ago, Flatcoat said:

The grid doesn’t work like that, if there is insufficient capacity and you cannot have a charger installed. You also need a 3 phase supply too for faster charging and not all homes have that.  There are already plenty of situations where nothing other than a slow home chargers could be installed. I am one of the many cynics when it comes to greenies brave new world but I am not into social media myths either.

I was going to suggest a single to 3 ph converter which in theory is possible but after checking myself found it would take all the capacity of the single phase incoming supply. Seems there is no way around it if you want 22kw fast charging other than a full mains upgrade to 3 phase which would cost £K's

[nlee]

25 minutes ago, ernieb said:

Agree with all of what you’ve said and right now I’m thinking of asking to upgrade the main incoming fuze it’s very low at present. Where I’m coming from is that my next car will very likely be a pure EV and that would likely need a 22Kw charger and 3 phase mains, that would be a major change at our house.  I’d probably run to a 7.4Kw charger with load balancing right now but the cost is way beyond what I think is reasonable especially as it has to be connected by an accredited professional. I can get a lot of charges and rage for the current costs. If the installation grants were what they used to be then that would make it worth while.

I find the whole debate and development fascinating but maybe I'm a bit weird!

I'm similar. I see the PHEV as a stepping stone to see how things have progressed in 3 years and whether a full EV is right for me.

You're not alone in having a single phase supply. I believe it's less than 0.01% that have a 3 phase supply. I live on a 7 year old development that doesn't, although I'm told the estate does so it is possible to get it upgraded. It looks like from 2022, all new builds with off street parking will have to have a EV point installed as part of the build but these will still only be single phase 7.4kw max.

I guess a 22kw charger at home is less of a need than for public chargers. With our PHEVs it is quite likely to fully use the Battery every day or two for an average use or commute. But with a full EV you still only do similar mileage so don't empty the Battery every time and only need to "top up" most of the time.

[ernieb]

Hopefully in 3 to 5 years there will be batteries that really do charge to 80% in 10mins. I e seen some YouTube reviews and updates on the Toyota version of this Battery and it all looks very promising. But as had been said many times on this forum the power infrastructure to enable a mass market availability of 22Kw chargers to be working and available.  Then there is going to be the question of cost per Kw, which never seems to be fully addressed, my guess is that it’s going to increase the cost per mile considerably? 

[nlee]

Told you I liked a spreadsheet. I did this when I was considering the PHEV.

The green line shows the cost per mile (left axis) v cost per KwH (bottom axis). The red line is based on the current cost of diesel.

At standard domestic rates (assume 25p/kWh) currently, cost per mile is about 50% of diesel. The break point where it costs the same is when electricity is about 49p/kWh (assuming diesel stays the same). Some of the super fast public chargers on motorways, etc. charge 65p to 75p per kWh which make it around 20% more expensive than diesel already!

As I've mentioned before, off peak charging at 5p/kWh brings the cost down to 1.4p/mile, about a tenth the cost of diesel.

[ernieb]

Nigel, I also use spreadsheets, I’m very much a visual learner so like to see the data in manageable chunks, the old adage that a picture paints a thousand words applies.

[philip42h]

16 minutes ago, nlee said:

Told you I liked a spreadsheet. I did this when I was considering the PHEV.

The green line shows the cost per mile (left axis) v cost per KwH (bottom axis). The red line is based on the current cost of diesel.

At standard domestic rates (assume 25p/kWh) currently, cost per mile is about 50% of diesel. The break point where it costs the same is when electricity is about 49p/kWh (assuming diesel stays the same). Some of the super fast public chargers on motorways, etc. charge 65p to 75p per kWh which make it around 20% more expensive than diesel already!

As I've mentioned before, off peak charging at 5p/kWh brings the cost down to 1.4p/mile, about a tenth the cost of diesel.

That's not a spreadsheet - it's a graph! 🙂

And while the graph looks correct, the annotation is wrong - I assume that you are using 3.5 miles / kW rather than 3.5 kW / mile (which wouldn't be very efficient)! 😉

But it closely mirrors the calcs that I have done. My hybrid (like your notional diesel) cost about 15p/mile to run (depending on how you drive and where you buy fuel). And the breakpoint for an EV is around 50p / kWh.

Early adopters of EV technology were, are and maybe will be able to take advantage of promotional and off-peak EV tariffs ... I bet it won't last! And, as you say, for the ultra fast chargers that make long range EV driving realistic and practical the cost per kWh makes ICE and hybrid more attractive stilll!