CVT manually into neutral at low speed

[Thermal]

Yes, there is room for improvement. ACC works quite well in heavy traffic, as long as everybody behaves somewhat. Maybe the RAV4 system has some more processing power to cope with situations you described, because I never experienced such hectic reactions.

That said, it works best if traffic keeps reasonably flowing and if not, there always is the Cancel button to return control to the Master.

[Cyker]

TBH, the system was just never designed to cope with the sort of situation and environment I normally drive in - Narrow streets, illegally parked vehicles, drivers with apparently no eyes and/or brains, suicidal pedestrians, oblivious e-scooter riders etc.

As you sort-of allude to, I find the system works best when things are 'easy' - The automated systems are literally like an anxious learner driver, and I find if I give it situations such a learner can deal with - e.g. Gently rippling traffic queues, or long gently curving motorways -  it does okay, but anything even remotely taxing (iffy road markings, aggressive drivers) and I need to be extra prepared to take over in case it just freaks out! I'm getting better at recognising such potential situations, but the thing with the van really caught me out. My chest still aches a bit from how hard it threw me forward! (!Removed! good brakes the Mk 4 Yaris!!)

It doesn't inspire me for the future of having to share the roads with autonomous cars tho', let me tell you!!

 

[Thermal]

4 minutes ago, Cyker said:

... I normally drive in - Narrow streets, illegally parked vehicles, drivers with apparently no eyes and/or brains, suicidal pedestrians, oblivious e-scooter riders etc.

Yep, that would make the ACC "experience" ... nerve wrecking!  The difference is, I mainly do Motorways, and believe me, we also have traffic and some of the categories drivers you described overhere. But after a couple of million kilometers, I think I have developed the necessary sense of identifying them in time, and switch off ACC in anticipation. 🤐

[Cyker]

It's not just the ACC but all the auto systems - the auto braking, the lane keeping assist, the sign recognition (I'm so glad I got my Mk4 before they turned on speed sign enforcement! It gets it wrong far too much for that system to work!)

 

[CPN]

9 hours ago, Cyker said:

It doesn't inspire me for the future of having to share the roads with autonomous cars tho', let me tell you!!

I would totally agree with you. I have noticed that the front radar in mine can sometimes be in "brain in neutral" mode when coming up to the rear of a vehicle in front (the car icon not even coming up in the display) and leaves it far too late for comfort (IMHO) before it even thinks about applying the brakes and then it does so rather violently! ...you're right though! The brakes are darn good "when push comes to shove"! ('scuse the potential pun!).

[Roy124]

Using ACC on multi lane slow traffic is not one of the recommended uses IIRC, however if you do, cut the car separation to minimum. 

OTOH, driving at a true 70 I was somewhat assured to see the separation complied with the two arrow separation guides. Unfortunately you still come across the driver who wishes to take advantage of the only bit of free motorway he can see and gains all of 30 yards.  There is also the truck driver guarding his momentum and tail gating. 

Of course if every car had the proper spacing it would halve the capacity of the motorway at high speeds. 

 

[Cyker]

I always drive with it at minimum seperation!  

The problem is, there is no benefit from using longer separation due to the silly way the ACC is programmed - If the car was smarter and used the longer separation to buffer its acceleration and braking, that would be perfect, but it doesn't!

The ACC drives like there is a pole between the cars, so if it's at max distance and the car in front brakes sharply, my car brakes sharply too! Instead of using the extra space as a buffer, it tries rabidly to keep that space open. This is dangerous because cars behind can see the massive gap in front of me and won't expect me to slam on the anchors with 6 car lengths in front. 

When I drive normally, I leave a similarly generous buffer to the car in front; If they brake or slow, I just lift off and begin to gently brake, allowing the distance to close - I DO NOT brake the same amount as the car in front and try to maintain the gap! Often, I don't need to brake at all, just let the buffer close, then expand again as the car in front stops braking and accelerates, meanwhile I've maintained a steady speed all along.

The ACC doesn't do that - If the car ahead accelerates hard it will too, and if they brake hard it does too. The only thing it gets right is stopping in slowly moving traffic. The system needs a lot of refinement for more real world use, so it definitely isn't anywhere near a real automated system, but to be fair it's not meant to be.

It works much better where the car in front is driven with gentle speed changes, so I like hanging behind lorries, busses, old people etc. when crawling in traffic with the ACC. Just gotta switch the AC to recirc as those bus fumes haven't improved at all. Funny how it's one rule for them and one rule for us innit Mayor KHAAAAN??

 

[Roy124]

Cyker, I agree in part, but if the car on front does brake rapidly your safe stopping gap will decrease rapidly so your system is justified is braking harder too.  It doesn't try and maintain the original spacing but a revised one. 

When the other car does accelerate briskly that is one thing my car will not do.  It accelerates slowly and allows the gap to open up. Now that really annoys following drivers, especially trucks. 

However there is one particularly dangerous trait.  As you follow a car in lane 1 your car will obediently slow as the car in front slows to take an exit. Once your lane is clearing an intelligent motorist will either maintain or resume his chosen speed.  ACC continues to slow as you close that vehicle in the slip road.  If it stops your car will brake hard with an empty road ahead or obvious consequences with following traffic. 

[Thermal]

I wonder if there's a difference between the Hybrid systems in the Yaris and the RAV4. The RAV4 has 3 different Modes of Operation, "ECO", "Normal", and "Sport", which makes the car behave quite differently, where "ECO is the gentle, comfortable and fuel efficient mode, "Normal" gives the performance you would expect from a 2.5 liter engine, and "Sport" mode is .... impressive which also changes the steering and braking characteristics!

On longer distances I normally drive in ECO mode which gives between 55 and 57 mpg (5.2 - 4.9 L/100 Km average and during the summer season. Not bad for a 1750 Kg car.

[Stopeter44]

13 hours ago, Cyker said:

All the safety systems operate at the same level as an anxious learner driver!

Yikes ! That could be scary !!

[Thermal]

15 hours ago, Cyker said:

... having to share the roads with autonomous cars ...

 

Maybe that would not be too bad as it seems. What I have seen sofar is, that these autonomous cars are all programmed to be extremely defensive and cautious. The technology is still in its infancy, so they will have bugs but that's a matter of time.

I expect traffic to be alot safer when autonomous driving matures. Unless, ofcourse, manufacturers are then forced by "the market" to equip autonomous vehicles with "Ludricous" and "Idiots" buttons.

Fortunately, I will be too old to drive by then. 😟

[Cyker]

8 hours ago, Roy124 said:

Cyker, I agree in part, but if the car on front does brake rapidly your safe stopping gap will decrease rapidly so your system is justified is braking harder too.  It doesn't try and maintain the original spacing but a revised one. 

When the other car does accelerate briskly that is one thing my car will not do.  It accelerates slowly and allows the gap to open up. Now that really annoys following drivers, especially trucks. 

However there is one particularly dangerous trait.  As you follow a car in lane 1 your car will obediently slow as the car in front slows to take an exit. Once your lane is clearing an intelligent motorist will either maintain or resume his chosen speed.  ACC continues to slow as you close that vehicle in the slip road.  If it stops your car will brake hard with an empty road ahead or obvious consequences with following traffic. 

So, the whole point of the 'safe stopping gap' is I can allow it to close and brake firmly without having to slam on the anchors; I *use* that as extra stopping distance to slow the car down rapidly without risking a skid. The emergency brake and the ACC do *not* do this - They brake far too sharply and do not use up the gap if the car in front brakes suddenly, they just stop the car dead. It happened again today on the way home, I was turning left and the car in front of me went straight on, but then suddenly slowed (Not even stopped!) because the car in front of him decided to turn right and had to stop to wait for oncoming traffic (Obviously no signals which is why the car in front of me was not expecting it). I was already braking for the corner, more than enough that I would have closed the gap without hitting them, even if they had stopped, but that sudden slowing was enough to panic the system and trigger it to slam on the brakes briefly, then let go again when it realised we were in no danger.

 

See the attached Dashcam footage!

We are not going very fast, and I was already starting to brake for the corner from before the Keep Clear markings. You can see how much space there is when the auto-brake triggers!!

 

About your 2nd point - I find it does as you say when you moving off from stationary, or everyone is changing speed gently, but in e.g. stop-start traffic, say the guy in front is one of those GO! STOP! GO! STOP! types, the car *will* try to copy them, accelerating and braking much harder than it should. In those situations I disable the ACC and just drive how I always have in such situations - Have car accelerate more slowly than the GO! STOP! guy, letting the gap grow and shrink with only small applications of the accelerate or brake as I follow them. On good days I can just roll behind them at a constant speed, slowly slowing as the traffic stops again. On really good days I don't even have to brake to stop! (Well, when I drove manuals; Impossible to do that in an auto with creep!). It is a shame the system can't analyse the traffic and just go forwards at a slower average speed instead of trying to copy the car in front.

 

Your observation about the junction is one I've also experienced a lot too! The system just doesn't understand when a car is exiting and keeps tracking it (You can see it still has the Car symbol up in the ACC display, even tho' there is no car in front of you!); I've gotten better at catching the accelerator to maintain speed or jabbing the cancel button to mitigate this, but sometimes it doesn't do it so I prepare for nothing!!

 

8 hours ago, Thermal said:

I wonder if there's a difference between the Hybrid systems in the Yaris and the RAV4. The RAV4 has 3 different Modes of Operation, "ECO", "Normal", and "Sport", which makes the car behave quite differently, where "ECO is the gentle, comfortable and fuel efficient mode, "Normal" gives the performance you would expect from a 2.5 liter engine, and "Sport" mode is .... impressive which also changes the steering and braking characteristics!

On longer distances I normally drive in ECO mode which gives between 55 and 57 mpg (5.2 - 4.9 L/100 Km average and during the summer season. Not bad for a 1750 Kg car.

Hmm, maybe, but from what you say it sounds like the RAV4 does it differently.

In the Mk4, the modes don't actually do anything really, just change the accelerator pedal response curve; In all three modes, if you floor the accelerator, you get the same response, at least in mine; It just changes what happens in the middle - In Eco, you have to push the pedal more to get it going, but as you get towards the end of travel the speed ramps up much much faster; Power is the opposite - It gives a lot of power at the beginning, but as you get to the end it tails off. Normal is I guess the linear power delivery mode.

I actually run in Eco all the time, as it gives more range of low-speed control. Power mode I avoid as it just runs the engine if you even breath on the accelerator, but I do go to Normal mode when the car is full of heavy people as it makes it respond the same as it does in Eco with just me in the car  

It's not like it is in EVs, which limit acceleration and top speed in Eco mode; I can accelerate just as fast in Eco as I can in Power, and there is definitely no top-speed limit in Eco  

The mode switch also doesn't seem to affect how the radar cruise control responds - If it's on power or eco it still seems to drive the same way...

 

[Thermal]

@Cyker,

Yes, looking at your video, the Yaris doesn't handle that very well. I've never seen that happen in the RAV4.
And I have seen and felt the "pedestrian alert" only once, when it was really needed, when a brainless cyclist crossed my path in a narrow street, while she was busy texting!

You mention that the various Modes in the Yaris don't do much. In the RAV4 the difference is undeniable. The Mode switch is a big dial, and has 3 positions: ECO and SPORT. The dial always returns to the middle position and for "Normal" Mode the dial is marked "Press for Normal".

If the dial is pressed by accident (which leaves ECO or SPORT mode) and press the accelerator a bit, you know immediately that you're no longer in ECO mode.
"Sport" Mode changes the car even more. The instrument panel turns red and acceleration, steering and braking become far more aggressive. 0 to 100 in 8 seconds they say... It's not a sportscar, but it is ... impressive.
Given our national speed limit, I have never tried the top speed in any Mode.
And given the present fuel prices, I only use Sport Mode sometimes when entering a busy Motorway.

ECO, common sense and patience is the way to drive a Hybrid and it serves you well.

Stay safe!

[Rhymes with Paris]

I am finding it really interesting reading about your hybrid cars and how they drive , with all the modern systems.

I can't see me getting one however unless something drastic happens to my tsport, fingers crossed that it doesn't.🤞

Also the earlier posts about driving automatics in general and the reference to HJ advice.

I remember reading HJs column in the newspaper , and was somewhat astounded at his advice to drive two footed , when his other advice was so knowledgeable and helpful.

There seemed to be no account taken of muscle memory , as in when you are used to driving an auto right foot only and know exactly how much pressure to apply from accelerater to brake and back again without thinking about it.

Whereas left foot braking felt so awkward and no muscle memory to give fine graduated control , mostly vastly over braking when I tried it out to see if was as bad an idea as I thought it was.

I had a memorable lesson about autos and floor mats the day I picked up my old lexus is from the dealer, s/h btw not new , driving behind a skip lorry the car accelerated violently and braking was not holding it  on full throttle in drive.

It took very nearly too long for me to react and turn the ignition off , stopping inches from the skip lorry.

My son who was in the car with me has never been the same since ,has skipophobia 😆

When my breathing slowed down a little , I found the passenger side floor mat had been swapped over with the drivers side one ,no cutout for the accelerator of course so the floor mat accelerated for me.

So much for the professional dealer and his valeter.

Ah well lesson learned , always check things for myself , especially simple things.

[Cyker]

I must admit it's a lot of fun to drive - I hadn't expected it to be so good, based on previous hybrid experiences, until I tried one! It's very darty thanks to the beefed up leccy motors, and they must have kidnapped the guy who does the handling for Ford as the handling is soooo much better than previous cars. Doesn't wallow round corners like all my previous Yarises (I still love my old Mk1 diesel, but the corner lean was hilarious!  ), and feels very precise. Steering is a bit too over-assisted, nowhere near as nice as the hydraulic steering in the T-Sport and jappy-built Mk1 Yarises, and it's a loooot heavier than the Mk1 T-Sport - You really can't just fling it round a corner the way you can in a T-Sport   I quickly learned that on one of my fun roads, when it started to understeer and the traction and ESP lights came on  The ESP is pretty cool tho', it's like torque vectored braking  

You don't have to rev it as much as a T-Sport to get it to shift, but the engine does get very growly as it speeds up. Considering it's an atkinson/miller-cycle engine, it's got a surprisingly large amount of torque at the lower end of the rev range, esp. compared to the earlier hybrids!

The T-Sport has much more comfy seats than the Mk4 tho'. My poor spine!

When I heard about the GR4 I had an itch to get one as it's everything I wanted out of a Yaris in the past (A turbo-charged AWD Rally Yaris?! Yes please!), but my wallet would never survive the running costs (I'd have to service it 3-4 times a year with the mileage I do, and I'd probably have to refuel it every day  God only knows what business insurance on a GR4 would be like  ). The Hybrid is fun enough I think I actually prefer it, and it's so great being able to go for a countryside blast without having to worry about fuel use! I don't know what witchcraft they used for it to still be getting 75mpg with the way I drive, but it's still working!

The only killer is all these automated systems and warnings. I've never had a car beep at me so much! I'd also be scared to touch anything in the engine bay (It's proper rammed in there!), whereas the T-Sport is so easy to work on. Everything's accessible and laid out with thought to a mechanic!

 

That's also a good point about the left-foot braking - When I tried it, it was as you say - Didn't have the right muscle/movement precision for braking. Left foot definitely prefers a clutch  

Hmm, tho' from what you say about your Lexus experience, I wonder what the correct procedure in the Mk4 would be in that situation - No handbrake, maybe the EPB but you have to hold it down so probably would take too long, can't just turn the car off like you can with a key as it's just a button (It really doesn't like you pressing it while you're driving...!) plus if you did I think the electronic steering lock might activate which would be bad in an emergency situation...!, no clutch, can't put it into P while moving, although you can put it into R and N... (Not sure if it will lock out R above a certain speed, but I have accidentally shifted it into R while going forwards before; It basically doesn't do much until you press the accelerator, then it quickly slows the forward motion and reverses.). Maybe I should see if there's a What To Do in an Emergency section in the manual that covers that...!   

[Roy124]

RwP, I was once driving a Ford Capri at 95 (legally) with my 65 year old aunt in the left seat and my father's budgerigar on the back seat when easing off on the throttle had no effect.  The pedal was just floppy on the floor. 

I was in lane 3 of a motorway.  I don't know why I did it, but I got my toe under the pedal, lifted it and the power dropped off.  

I exited the motorway and a police patrol pointed me at a garage a mile down the road. The throttle pedal return spring had broken. 

[Cyker]

Eeek, scary!  

 

[RickyC]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

Hmm, tho' from what you say about your Lexus experience, I wonder what the correct procedure in the Mk4 would be in that situation - No handbrake, maybe the EPB but you have to hold it down so probably would take too long, can't just turn the car off like you can with a key as it's just a button (It really doesn't like you pressing it while you're driving...!) plus if you did I think the electronic steering lock might activate which would be bad in an emergency situation...!, no clutch, can't put it into P while moving, although you can put it into R and N... (Not sure if it will lock out R above a certain speed, but I have accidentally shifted it into R while going forwards before; It basically doesn't do much until you press the accelerator, then it quickly slows the forward motion and reverses.). Maybe I should see if there's a What To Do in an Emergency section in the manual that covers that...!   

As first reaction I would put in B.  It doesn't stop the car but makes it lose a lot of performance giving you more time to think what to do.

As emergency action the manual suggest to keep te power button pressed for at least 3 seconds to kill the engine.

[Rhymes with Paris]

Cyker and Roy 124 , I am so sorry if I appear to have ignored your kind replies to my post.

Sometimes my various conditions get the better of me, and it is difficult to put anything coherent together.

Regards the runaway cars though,yes a very scary experience , though thankfully a rare one.🤪

I got to thinking about my biking days ,(until 2011) .     now all fairly modern bikes since around the 70s have a bright red engine kill switch on the handle bar next to the throttle instantly reachable by the thumb in an emergency by the rider ,and emergency crews too.

I have not heard of any car ,apart from racing or rally cars with such switches ,has anyone else ?

I am no engineer , but I reckon such a switch to cut all electrical systems including fuel cut off would be fairly simple and cheap to fit at manufacture , maybe next to hazard lights switch and permanently illuminated.

If Toyota adopt this on cars , the royalties would come in very handy to supplement my pension 🤑.

 

 

[Cyker]

Haha!  Yeah, I've also only seen such things on racing cars - They even put some on Binky! (Anyone who likes cars and doesn't know what that is, goto youtube and search for Binky. You will find an epic journey of engineering blodymindedness, funk, tea and brackets, courtesy of Bad Obsession Motorsport.)

Oh, and busses and such.

I was surprised they didn't make it mandatory for EVs to have some sort of HV isolator like you describe, as emergency services currently have to learn where the master HV fuse is for different EVs so they can disconnect the HV stuff.

Then again, maybe they're worried it'd be open to abuse, as if it was easily accessible I could imagine miscreants deliberately activating them for a laugh...

And don't worry about the delay in reply; Heck, replying is not mandatory! This forum is just a place to swap tips and talk crap, it's not a second job (I'm looking at all you 1-post people that drop in, demand answers, then never come back!!). I tend to only reply to stuff that comes up in the Latest Posts list anyway... I've probably missed out on a few posts I meant to reply to but forgot about...

[Rhymes with Paris]

Aye Cyker , and I note your comments about the T sport comfort.

I find mine quite comfortable , and roomy for my 6ft frame.

I have ridden in friends recent cars (large cars outside) and been cramped , so Toyota must have put some design magic in the mk 1 at least.

Also I find the footrest ok and not tight on space.

I came out of a 2012 Honda CRV to this one , which admittedly was supremely comfortable, and very easy to get in and out of , important for those who are not so agile.

But the Yaris is no hardship being around half the outside size of the CRV.

Also even with lower profile tyres and stiffer suspension than standard Yaris of the era , not teeth rattling.

I see some new cars now with what looks like a smear of black paint around the wheel, no suspension can get round that , can it ?

[Cyker]

Well I've been to Exeter and back without stops (Well, I stopped at Exeter obvs  ) in my old Mk1 D4D and was absolutely fine, whereas in the Mk4 my lower back is killing me after half an hour if I don't have my Multi-variable Spine and Back Support (i.e. a towel) in place!  

The roof is also a lot lower in the Mk4; I've actually hit my head on the roof on some of the particularly vicious speed humps some of the London boroughs like to deploy (I'm looking at you Haringey!!!)

There's a lot of really cool stuff in the Mk4, and being able to drive on the electric motor is inexplicably fun, but I'd still go back to my Mk1 D4D in heartbeat if not for the stupid ULEZ! (I do wonder how much they've made in fines since it started; The signage for it is still practically non-existent! Be warned all ye who would visit London!)