Yaris air con fuses

[sceh]

2004 Yaris and the air con is not cold most likely because all the gas has leaked out.

However, before filling it I decided to check fuses..

Under the bonnet there is a fuse box and the aircon fuse positions are empty. I have never removed them and it used to work well.

There is another fusebox under the steering wheel area with a single fuse for aircon but impossible to remove so I have not been able to check so far.

Which of these fuses controls the aircon. When I engage aircon there is no change in engine revs nd I don't hear the magnetic clutch angege on the aircon pump. This could be due to a) fuse or b) lack of gas or c) it is knackered.

Any ideas please?

 

thanks

[flash22]

13 and 19 of the internal fuse box, R8 relay under the bonnet

https://fuse-box.info/toyota/toyota-yaris-echo-vitz-xp10-1999-2005-fuses-and-relay

 

Does the ac light come on when pressed ?

 

[sceh]

Thanks. Yes it does

[sceh]

Does this imply the electrics are OK and it is a gas issue?

[corradovr6]

a couple of things to check - look at the small refrigerant indicator in the rhs of the engine bay.  This should have a small bubble visible in it to indicate that there is refrigerant present (or not).  Have someone sit in the car and switch the aircon on - look down the lhs of the engine bay where the aircon pulley is and you should see the centre bolt turning.  All the aircon switch does is to power an electromagnet in the aircon clutch.  Once this is on, the turning pulley is pulled in and the engine then turns the aircon pump.  Quite a simple set up really, but if the pump is seized, either the electromagnet will have burnt out of the pistons or the pump may be shot. 

[Red_Corolla]

The sure fire way of telling it was low charge used to be shorting out the pressure switch and looking to see if the compressor clutch would then pull in (but only for a quick check, running without a charge will damage the compressor and one of the reasons the switch is there).

These days a lot of compressors use a variable stroke pump rather than a clutch so you can no longer see if they're operating or not without electrical test equipment that can measure duty cycle.

When you take it for regas, make sure it's properly leak tested. Years ago, I had an old Volvo regassed and it passed a vacuum test but still leaked once it was put under pressure by the new refrigerant.

[flash22]

Don't mess with it, two things i won't attempt is paint and AC (bar electrical diag)

Get a mobile guy around to give it the once over, they can throw their gauges on it and tell you the issue

one thing to try is clicking in the AC relay manually

[Mooly]

You can also just try carefully and gently blipping the service port valve (its like a tyre valve) and seeing if there is pressure in there or not. It should be like pressing an aerosol. A charged system is under pressure 24/7, you don't need the engine running to test.

If there is refrigerant in there then it will be extremely cold as it vents from the valve as it boils off at near -30 C. So just a fraction of a second blip on the valve like blipping a tyre and hearing the 'tsss' sound. Should the system have no pressure then you have your answer, a leak somewhere. If there is pressure then it is quite likely the charge level is low (not enough refrigerant) and that may be caused by a very small leak or more likely be due to natural leakage over many years and just needs recharging. A/C system can lose 5 to 15% annually, particularly if not regularly used. 

[sceh]

Has anyone refilled the gas themselves using one of these kits? Is it effective/easy/worth it?

thanks

[Stivino]

39 minutes ago, sceh said:

Has anyone refilled the gas themselves using one of these kits? Is it effective/easy/worth it?

thanks

Yes, I’ve done it many times.  I used it recently on my Avensis when I did this repair, it’s still working perfectly.

[sceh]

Everyone seems to sell R12A or HC12 saying it is compatible with R134A. Can I use this even though Toyota specify R134A?

[Stivino]

I would only use the gas recommended on the sticker under the bonnet.

You can get R134a in Halfords. 

[flash22]

As you don't know your issue, I would not DIY the AC you're just wasting money, get a mobile guy on it, he can put the gauges on it, weigh the system out, vacuum the system down, dye the system for leaks or weigh in the gas and put the correct amount of oil in the system

[sceh]

Good points but since I have three cars with aircon, I reckon I need to master this otherwise it will end up costing too much. I have seen Youtube videos which seem to show you connect the gas canister and release gas until it reaches a predefined pressure. Seems a bit too easy frankly!

No mention of oils though. Do the gasses contain a bit of oil anyway? Some say yes and some say no..

I suppose the procedure for topping up is different from starting from scratch and emptying completely?

[Stivino]

If you buy this from Halfords it contains oil.

 I’ve used that many times with no problems. 
 

[Mooly]

Get it looked at by a professional would be my advice. The cost of the Halfords cannister and the trigger assembly needed cost more than having it done by an A/C specialist.

It is very important that no air enters the system when its recharged. If you are just 'topping off the refrigerant' in an otherwise good system and know what you are doing then you can be successful. If the system is discharged it will have air (and moisture) present and you can not just add refrigerant, the system has to be pulled down to a vacuum for 30 to 60 minutes to boil off moisture and remove all air. Also of course the question of why the system was discharged in the first place has to be answered.

Does the refrigerant contain oil. Absolutely not. R134a is pure. When a system is correctly discharged, vacuumed, and then recharged pure R134a is added together with a small separate amount of the correct compressor oil which is just a few millilitres to account for any that was carried out by the discharging. Most of the oil resides permanently in the compressor. The Halfords stuff contains a general non specific oil and also other additives that should not be needed. 

Get it looked at properly. 

  

   

[sceh]

Thanks. First I will check if the guys who do these things in France actually know only of this stuff or just blast a bit of gas in (which I suspect). Let you know and thanks for the advice

[Red_Corolla]

I won't enter the DIY vs professional debate as regards whether it's a good idea or not. What I will say is that, in 20 years experience of owning a car with A/C (and I could include the wife's cars also), I've never once run out of refrigerant simply because the system 'needed a top-up' and I've known them to work fine for many years with no attention whatsoever other than making sure it gets regular use to keep the seals lubricated. On the 2 occasions that I had an issue, both had a root cause, i.e. a leak that needed fixing first. Doing DIY top-ups without getting the system checked first would only have cost me more in the end. That's my experience and that's why I will only ever go to a pro for A/C work. For absolutely anything else that doesn't require a ramp, the garage is the last resort for me.

[Stivino]

I’ve had cars that have had a slight leak and just needed a drop of gas once a year.  I used to switch on the air con (which didn’t work because it was low on gas) and put the gas in until the compressor kicked in, then I gave it another wee bit of gas, just for luck.

The Halfords stuff absolutely does contain the proper oil. 

Do a visual check for leaks, the condenser is the usual culprit, I’ve changed loads of them.
If you short out the low pressure switch and switch it on for a second, that will let you know that the system works.

You can also test for gas in the system by giving the top up valve a quick blip, but best to wear a glove because if you get it on your skin you can get a cold burn.  If there is still gas in the system, there won’t be any air. 

I know two air con guys, they want the best part of £140 to do a re-gas.

1st they vacuum it.  If it doesn’t hold the vacuum, they won’t re-fill it.  And, if you decide to go no further because you have a leak that will be expensive to repair, it’s still going to be £60 minimum.

 

[Cyker]

Aiiiee don't use HC12! It's basically propane and is flammable AF! It is NOT suitable for use in cars!!!!

It's only used as a more environmentally friendly replacement for R12 (Basically the OG Freon that is now banned because it destroys the ozone layer) in static installations (Apparently a fire hazard is more environmentally friendly than depleting the ozone layer  )

TBH, if your car is losing enough gas you feel you'll need to regularly top it up with one of those canisters, it's probably in need of professional repair. If it was like, once every couple of years maybe it'd be worth it, but any more than every couple of months then don't bother.

I bought one of the green bottles from Halfords with the hose, to try and stave off my Mk2's AC problems - It supposedly has the refrigerant, oil, and a 'safe' leak sealer, but it did bugger all. I mean, it did add gas to the system, but it didn't help, esp. as with my system, within a month of being regassed 'properly' (i.e. where the machine sucks out everything then adds new gas) the low side pressure would start going UP when the AC was switched on (This is a clear sign something has gone Very Wrong, as the low side should ALWAYS be pulled down when the AC is switched on!!)

The most useful thing I got out of it was the gauge, as with it I could see the AC system was not behaving like physics said it should, which led me seeking (and failing) to find an AC specialist who could fix it for me... (They all insisted it was just because of leaks and quoted me to replace all the pipes etc. but my gut told me it couldn't have been as simple as a mere leak. I only broke down when Toyota Jemca also gave a similar diagnosis, and like an idiot I let them convince me to change the pipes, only to find that didn't fix the problem at all and the system failed again, even worse, as this time not even a week had passed!)

 

In my case, I think the problem was due to leaks from non-use by the previous owners, allowing moist air into the system which apparently turns the refrigerant and lubricant into an acid which eats at the pipes and compressor. That's one of the few things that can explain all the pin hole leaks in the pipes, and likely led to the internal (and non replaceable) clutch going in the compressor...

It's one thing I agree with the german manufacturers - They wanted to use CO2, as unlike R134 and R1234, it doesn't turn into an acid when exposed to atmospheric moisture (And especially compared to R1234, doesn't turn into essentially Alien blood if also exposed to a high heat source, like say a hot exhaust manifold or petrol fire...). The gas is also way way cheaper - I'd much prefer they spend more money on the AC hardware and have cheap gas, than have cheaper AC hardware and omghowmuchforthe gas... (A regas for R1234 is double the cost of R134! I really hope my Mk4's AC system is put together better than my Mk2's...)

 

[Stivino]

3 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Aiiiee don't use HC12!

He can’t, it’s impossible.

The only connections that will fit are for R134A

[Cyker]

If people can fry network ports by forcing USB plugs into them, I'm sure someone suitable determined could somehow do it... what is that saying... when you make something idiot proof, nature invents a better idiot?  

 

[Mooly]

11 hours ago, Stivino said:

The Halfords stuff absolutely does contain the proper oil. 

It contains 'an' oil, a universal oil. Its like just buying 'oil' for your car. 20W50 mineral oil will 'work' in pretty much any vehicle... but would you use it? Aircon is no different, it needs the correct oil for the compressor. 

https://www.aa1car.com/library/pagoil.htm

 

 

[Stivino]

44 minutes ago, Mooly said:

It contains 'an' oil, a universal oil. Its like just buying 'oil' for your car. 20W50 mineral oil will 'work' in pretty much any vehicle... but would you use it? Aircon is no different, it needs the correct oil for the compressor. 

https://www.aa1car.com/library/pagoil.htm

 

 

What would make you think that they would just use any old oil in their product?

Your claim that it is a “universal oil” is contrary to their claim of “An advanced, patented additvies package is included to help lubricate and seal common leaks in the A/C system.”

I know who’s claim I chose to believe.

 

[Cyker]

You're both kinda right - The ezchill green bottle stuff does use a PAG oil suitable for most AC compressors, but at the same time for instance you can't use it on a hybrid/EV/PHEV because you can't use PAG oils with electric AC compressors.

Another danger is you can add too much oil to the system, esp. if you keep topping up with these things over time without having an AC machine suck all the oil out of the system first.

They're okay for the odd top up on long intervals, but are no substitute for a proper AC service; TBH they're only useful for very niche cases, as if the AC system is working well it should work well for a good few years, in which case it'll be due a proper regas anyway, but if it drains out in less than a year the system will need diagnosis and repair; Neither of those scenarios really warrants manually topping up the gas.