PHEV.... winter EV range?

[Nick72]

I'm astounded I'm still getting about 45 miles with the heating on and it's 3C outside. What are folks getting?

[ernieb]

I agree Nick I’m still getting high 40’s around the town etc. with preconditioning, then heating and lights.
I’m also impressed so far with the OEM tyres at the low temperatures. Usually I immediately notice that they are hard as the temperature drops and you feel the difference in the suspension as it hits pot holes. This morning it was just freezing with an air temperature of 1oC and the tyres felt fine, the car handled very well on the icy roads.

[Nick72]

1 hour ago, ernieb said:

I agree Nick I’m still getting high 40’s around the town etc. with preconditioning, then heating and lights.
I’m also impressed so far with the OEM tyres at the low temperatures. Usually I immediately notice that they are hard as the temperature drops and you feel the difference in the suspension as it hits pot holes. This morning it was just freezing with an air temperature of 1oC and the tyres felt fine, the car handled very well on the icy roads.

That's great to hear Ernie. Definitely reassuring on both the range and grip front. I went a little too fast around a mini roundabout this AM when it was icy and only very slight slip which was immediately corrected by the AWD. Nice. 

[Lawnmowerman]

My indicator is reading 48-49 miles although due to the nature of my commute I achieve less (and achieving less than when temperature higher).

But still OK. 

[ernieb]

Mine is still showing low 50's but as I've not been doing more than local commutes it's difficult to see what I actually get on a charge as I tend to put the car back on charge overnight.  I'll know better in the next week or so as I've some longer trips planned.

[spicyhotone]

My estimated range has dropped from 54ish to 52ish over the last couple of weeks. However, I think I get considerably less than that in achieved range. Again, I do mostly ~10 mile local journeys, so don't often get a chance to run the Battery down in a single run to see the real range. Anecdotally, I think I have observed the second "half" of the (accessible) Battery depletes faster than the first half. With the short journeys of course, a lot of energy is used in heating the car up, if the car was not plugged-in and preheated, so it's difficult to get a completely accurate idea of real range.

[ernieb]

I’ve also noted that the state of charge indicator appears non linear even when I’ve been doing a long trip and exhaust the traction Battery. It’s OK as a quick indication a bit like an analogue watch you look at it but don’t always read the time but absorb where you are in the day, nearly lunch, mid morning etc. For detailed SOC the remaining range is probably more accurate but as has been said, multiple small trips, heater etc. can make all of these things inaccurate. I tend to do an overnight charge whenever it gets towards the 50% mark.

[Nick72]

Great points each.

What is impressive is that the range figures are still there abouts the range claim from Toyota. 

Many EVs see a 30pc range drop in winter. My last PHEV EV range halved between 20C to 5C. 

Think Toyota has done a good job of managing Battery temperatures and overall system efficiency. 

[ernieb]

Totally agree that the declared range figures are realistic, I do expect them to come down over the harder parts of the winter but I also think that Toyota have gone the extra mile in declaring an estimated range that is achievable certainly as an average over the whole year. 

[Flatcoat]

4 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Great points each.

What is impressive is that the range figures are still there abouts the range claim from Toyota. 

Many EVs see a 30pc range drop in winter. My last PHEV EV range halved between 20C to 5C. 

Think Toyota has done a good job of managing battery temperatures and overall system efficiency. 

Mine did too so looking forward to having a realistic achievable EV mode range. Talking of PHEV and EV range, Did anyone see Despatches on Channel 4 this week? 

[ernieb]

No, quick synopsis, conclusion?

[Flatcoat]

Panorama about Cobalt mining conditions in DCR (bl88dy horrendous). Despatches about rubbish charging infrastructure, poor real world EV range and Battery degradation, tail pipe emmissions of VOC’s from PHEV’s being worse than diesels….. 

[spicyhotone]

Had a slightly longer drive today. Left home with a range of 49 miles showing (car had been charging, and I'd preheated it thinking it would pull power through the mains as it was plugged in, but not sure if it did as I have charge timer turner on, so perhaps it won't pull anything until the timer says it should?). Anyhow, round trip was around 32 miles, mixed driving including a brief stretch of uphill dual carriageway at 70mph. 2 adults and 2 15 year old teenagers. Outside temperature 8C. Outwards mostly uphill, return mostly downhill. On return, indicated range was 10 miles - so that would produce a full range of around 42 miles - quite a bit less than was indicated when we left. Feel a tad disappointed by that. Perhaps I'm unreasonably optimistic.

[Flatcoat]

Yes you are unreasonably optimistic. In those conditions and usage that is good. How many ICE cars have you owned that got that close to claimed MPG?! 

[ernieb]

So about 14% less than the original display range.  You did effectively have 4 up so a reasonable load and that must effect the range I’d have thought.

[Lawnmowerman]

On 11/25/2021 at 9:56 PM, Lawnmowerman said:

My indicator is reading 48-49 miles although due to the nature of my commute I achieve less (and achieving less than when temperature higher).

But still OK. 

3 degrees this morning and an indicated 46 miles. Pre-heated before I left, heater, wipers & headlamps on etc. Vey high winds. Then return at lunchtime and back 40 minutes later.

32 miles before it ran out of EV. 

[Nick72]

5 hours ago, spicyhotone said:

Had a slightly longer drive today. Left home with a range of 49 miles showing (car had been charging, and I'd preheated it thinking it would pull power through the mains as it was plugged in, but not sure if it did as I have charge timer turner on, so perhaps it won't pull anything until the timer says it should?). Anyhow, round trip was around 32 miles, mixed driving including a brief stretch of uphill dual carriageway at 70mph. 2 adults and 2 15 year old teenagers. Outside temperature 8C. Outwards mostly uphill, return mostly downhill. On return, indicated range was 10 miles - so that would produce a full range of around 42 miles - quite a bit less than was indicated when we left. Feel a tad disappointed by that. Perhaps I'm unreasonably optimistic.

That's great going for a loaded car, cold weather, and 70mph.

[nielshm]

Why is it, that electric capacity drops so significant, when tempratures drops to 5, 0 or below freezing?

ICE also drops in efficiency and uses more fuel, but not as much as a Battery. 

For me it's a problem that only 20 degrees can make the difference between optimal conditions and huge drop in effective range? It's the kind of things that keeps me away from pure EV's, for now. 

[Stopeter44]

1 hour ago, nielshm said:

For me it's a problem that only 20 degrees can make the difference between optimal conditions and huge drop in effective range? It's the kind of things that keeps me away from pure EV's, for now. 

I hadn’t thought about that!

[IanML]

I believe Canadian owners of older model EVs have experienced a 25% range reduction in Winter, but it's not just the Battery performance - the heating takes a share.  However, newer models have Battery heating arrangements, which reduce the range hit to perhaps 10 to 15%.

[ernieb]

It’s a problem with all types of Battery storage it’s a characteristic of the current Battery technology that’s in EV cars.  Some worst than others but heating the Battery helps but of course uses the battery to provide the energy.

[ernieb]

So I did a 115 miles today so used the full EV. At the outset the estimated range was 54 miles and I achieved 35 miles. On the face of it pretty poor. However, we started early and the temperature was 1oC and never managed to get above 2oC, heating on, windscreen wipers and headlights/fog lights on. Two adults, boot full to the brim, back seat and floor completely full with bags and cases. We travelled north up the M1 and set the ACC to 60mph, there was rain, sleet and snow with a full on head wind, the rain when viewed from the side windows was horizontal. The section of the M1 I use is mostly uphill and historically I get better mpg on the way back than going out. The head wind was really strong so on reflection I don’t think the car did so bad. 

[TonyFR]

Last night overnight temperature was max 1 degree where I live on French Swiss border. Had charged Battery overnight to full, I started off for a short trip at about 2.5 degrees and the ICE came on immediately unasked for about 5 mins (maybe for Battery warming or maybe 12v Battery topup as I came back from a long trip last night from the mountains when all systems were blasting away).  The app's still showing me the same range I would have expected in late summer (when I bought the car). Honestly I don't believe it, but I do think that Toyota is able to exploit the ICE to optimise the battery. Does that make sense? Not sure of the ecological balance though!

(When I was in the mountains, having exhausted the EV on arrival from home, on little trips thereafter between 1900 and 2000m the system was ICE up and EV down, after the same ICE warmup)

[ernieb]

Did you put the windscreen demister/de-icer on? If you did then that will kick in the ICE. I think that the system is intelligent enough to realise that the EV alone may not be able to cope with the current conditions, climbing a a steep hill/mountain when it’s very cold.

[TonyFR]

9 minutes ago, ernieb said:

Did you put the windscreen demister/de-icer on? If you did then that will kick in the ICE. I think that the system is intelligent enough to realise that the EV alone may not be able to cope with the current conditions, climbing a a steep hill/mountain when it’s very cold.

Not this morning. No need as no mist or ice. But I am beginning to see how well the Toyota system is  programmed to optimise the use of the traction Battery in winter conditions. What is increasingly clear to me is that we have no absolute control to ensure ONLY use of the (even fully charged) Battery in tough conditions.