PHEV.... winter EV range?

[Nick72]

11 hours ago, nielshm said:

Why is it, that electric capacity drops so significant, when tempratures drops to 5, 0 or below freezing?

ICE also drops in efficiency and uses more fuel, but not as much as a battery. 

For me it's a problem that only 20 degrees can make the difference between optimal conditions and huge drop in effective range? It's the kind of things that keeps me away from pure EV's, for now. 

Same issue as the digital cameras when they were a thing. Take one up to the top in the Alps at minus 20C and I managed to get no more than a dozen pics before the Battery died. Lithium batteries unfortunately. 

[Nick72]

4 hours ago, ernieb said:

So I did a 115 miles today so used the full EV. At the outset the estimated range was 54 miles and I achieved 35 miles. On the face of it pretty poor. However, we started early and the temperature was 1oC and never managed to get above 2oC, heating on, windscreen wipers and headlights/fog lights on. Two adults, boot full to the brim, back seat and floor completely full with bags and cases. We travelled north up the M1 and set the ACC to 60mph, there was rain, sleet and snow with a full on head wind, the rain when viewed from the side windows was horizontal. The section of the M1 I use is mostly uphill and historically I get better mpg on the way back than going out. The head wind was really strong so on reflection I don’t think the car did so bad. 

I'd say that was good. Range falls of with temperature, speed above 45mph (in the R4P case), and load. Lose c. 10 miles for about a 15C drop, the lose another c. 10 miles for speeds of 15 mph above the optimal of 45mph.

[Cyker]

At the end of the day batteries rely on a chemical reaction to produce voltage, and the colder it is the slower that reaction can happen.

It's why if you're storing them it's best to keep them in cold conditions, but when in use you want them at least warm (Albeit not so hot they start to decompose... eventually energetically!)

It's why thermal management, not just cooling, but warming too, will be so important in EVs for the long-term health of the Battery. It's one thing a lot of EV manufacturers have been skimping on *cough*NissanLeaf*cough* and they're paying the price for that.

Personally I'm still holding out for banana skins and beer with Mr Fusion  

 

[Flatcoat]

And why some PHEV’s and EV’s are cheaper than others. When I looked into MG, VW and Hyundai PHEV’s it is clear their Battery management is not that sophisticated compared with Toyota or Volvo. Reduces manufacturing and prices but at what cost elsewhere? 

[Nick72]

5 hours ago, Cyker said:

At the end of the day batteries rely on a chemical reaction to produce voltage, and the colder it is the slower that reaction can happen.

It's why if you're storing them it's best to keep them in cold conditions, but when in use you want them at least warm (Albeit not so hot they start to decompose... eventually energetically!)

It's why thermal management, not just cooling, but warming too, will be so important in EVs for the long-term health of the battery. It's one thing a lot of EV manufacturers have been skimping on *cough*NissanLeaf*cough* and they're paying the price for that.

Personally I'm still holding out for banana skins and beer with Mr Fusion  

 

Until we see solid state batteries then ultra capacitors. 5 and 10 years respectively. 😉

[Nick72]

My last PHEV, the range would drop to a third when it was cold, and, driving at 50 to 60mph.

Toyota has done a great job optimising performance and the Battery thermal management. 

[Cyker]

I'm not sure how solid state batteries will be affected by temp; Supposedly they're more resistant to high temperatures because the electrolyte is solid and won't boil, but as I understand it, it's still a chemical reaction so it would be affected by the cold at least somewhat...

Ultracaps are a bit like the nuclear fusion of electrical energy storage at the moment - They solve almost all the problems batteries have in theory, but nobody can get them to work with useful capacities vs batteries... Last time I looked the gap between batteries and supercaps was something like 5x less energy...

 

[ernieb]

I’ve seen some results that suggest that solid state batteries are stable to -15oC so better than the current Battery technology. I think part of the trick is the Battery density and the ability to heat and cool the batteries efficiently.

[Flatcoat]

3 hours ago, ernieb said:

I’ve seen some results that suggest that solid state batteries are stable to -15oC so better than the current battery technology. I think part of the trick is the battery density and the ability to heat and cool the batteries efficiently.

But what happens below -15? In Some parts of the world that is a heatwave in winter. 

[Nick72]

4 hours ago, Cyker said:

I'm not sure how solid state batteries will be affected by temp; Supposedly they're more resistant to high temperatures because the electrolyte is solid and won't boil, but as I understand it, it's still a chemical reaction so it would be affected by the cold at least somewhat...

Ultracaps are a bit like the nuclear fusion of electrical energy storage at the moment - They solve almost all the problems batteries have in theory, but nobody can get them to work with useful capacities vs batteries... Last time I looked the gap between batteries and supercaps was something like 5x less energy...

 

 

I think that's correct at present. But there's a greater scope available to design wider temperature tolerance bands according to a few papers I've read.

Supercaps agree... But not the ones in the defence sector where massive levels of energy need to be discharged very quickly  😉

[Nick72]

19 minutes ago, Flatcoat said:

But what happens below -15? In Some parts of the world that is a heatwave in winter. 

I think that would be a problem but I think the design freedoms you get with SS could allow that band to be widened. 

[ernieb]

11 hours ago, Nick72 said:

I think that would be a problem but I think the design freedoms you get with SS could allow that band to be widened. 

Agreed, there is a lot in the pipe line, it’s interesting to see what’s going on and if any of these make it from development small scale to series production, lots of hype but a way to go to get them into cars. Right now the designers seem to be hanging their hats on being able to fast charge to extend the range.

[ernieb]

Just looked at the MyT app and the range when using AC is around 10% lower than the standard range this is significantly worse than it usually is so must be taking the current cold conditions into account.

[nlee]

Just had a week in the Lake District with daily temperatures only just above freezing and lots of hills! I didn't have access to charge at the cottage so just let the car do it's thing. I did manage one quick charge on a public charger but most of the mileage was in HV mode.

When I did use EV the range was disappearing before my eyes. Hardly surprising on that terrain and temperature. I was getting nowhere near the initial range though. What was interesting though, in HV mode and normal mode, on the decent from the Kirkstone Pass Inn to Ambleside, which can't be much more than 3 or 4 miles, it appeared to recover 7 miles of EV range. Not bad to get 2 miles for every mile covered! I probably used half a tank of petrol getting to the top mind!

I have to say, using mainly in HV mode for a week, the car is still great working as a standard hybrid and I guess that is why all the non-PHEV contributors are really happy with their vehicles too.

[philip42h]

7 minutes ago, nlee said:

Just had a week in the Lake District with daily temperatures only just above freezing and lots of hills! I didn't have access to charge at the cottage so just let the car do it's thing. I did manage one quick charge on a public charger but most of the mileage was in HV mode.

When I did use EV the range was disappearing before my eyes. Hardly surprising on that terrain and temperature. I was getting nowhere near the initial range though. What was interesting though, in HV mode and normal mode, on the decent from the Kirkstone Pass Inn to Ambleside, which can't be much more than 3 or 4 miles, it appeared to recover 7 miles of EV range. Not bad to get 2 miles for every mile covered! I probably used half a tank of petrol getting to the top mind!

I have to say, using mainly in HV mode for a week, the car is still great working as a standard hybrid and I guess that is why all the non-PHEV contributors are really happy with their vehicles too.

... and we don't have any of the "range anxiety" you PHEVies seem to have - judging by the content of this thread! 😉

[ernieb]

I’m not sure I’d call it ‘range anxiety’ but I assume your comment is ‘touch in cheek’ 😇

[Lawnmowerman]

For most of us the PHEV is a new experience and also our first winter. So, interesting to compare performance with previous (warmer) weather conditions. Notwithstanding the increased electricity prices, it is great to be able not to entirely have to rely on petrol (which in itself has shot up in price as well).

[spicyhotone]

Not a range problem - but found to my dismay that the PHEV doesn't seem to have heated windscreen washer nozzles and/or the washer fluid loaded up at the factory contains a disappointingly lower level of antifreeze. Had a very smeared windscreen which was impossible to clean 😞

Also, got some very strange and disconcerting noises soon after startup in freezing conditions. A search on the forum appears to show this is "normal" behaviour of the heat pump in cold conditions.

[nlee]

1 hour ago, philip42h said:

... and we don't have any of the "range anxiety" you PHEVies seem to have - judging by the content of this thread! 😉

"PHEVies"... Love it!

One of the reasons I went for the PHEV was as a potential stepping stone to a full EV in a couple of years time. I have to say on a trip like that, range anxiety would have been a genuine concern. I hadn't appreciated the level of impact of the cold and the charging infrastructure in the lakes is still not great.

Many of the few public chargers I came across were out of service, in some of the car parks you have a limited time (or it becomes very expensive after 2 hours) which isn't much use if you wanted to charge while parked and going for a walk in the fells. I did come across chargers in a Supermarket that will only do rapid charges and you can't use for Type 2 plugs (not that that would be an issue for a full EV).

All in all its already good learning. It would have been do-able but may have needed one or two special, or out of the way trips. It will soon become a big selling point for holiday cottages to have charging facilities, much like WiFi was once upon a time.

[ernieb]

I can certainly agree about chargers if I had a full BEV I’d really have range anxiety. I can not see myself opting for the BX4 or similar until I can see the charging infrastructure is significantly more developed and reliable.

[Cyker]

Yeah, that's why I'm glad I just got my Mk4 Yaris - I had a Mk1 D4D and was planning to drive it to death while saving up for an EV, with the expectation that EVs would have improved enough, by the time that indestructible tank finally kicked the bucket, to have something useful to me

All I want is for something similarly Yaris-sized to be able to get to my brother's house and back in one go at full speed and no charging stops, in winter with full heating and summer with full AC, and enough range left over for diversions for when they inevitable close one of the junctions I need (Or the whole southbound stretch of the M1!! Which has happened before!! That was an adventure I didn't want at 2am!!), but we're not even close right now.

I wouldn't mind using a public charger now and then, but as people have pointed out the reliability of them is just woeful right now, although Tesla opening theirs up may help there as they've been the only really reliable  charger network. The other problem is, right now, if you *only* use public rapid chargers, aside from subsidised/free fast chargers, the 'fuel' costs are actually on par/worse than both my Mk4 and my old Mk1 D4D, and with an extra £10-20k premium on top it just doesn't make any financial sense. Charging from home or work is a necessity to see any sort of significant cost savings, esp. when they start trying to levy fuel tax on public chargers!

For me to get one, esp. at that sort of money, they have to be *better* than existing vehicles, and right now they just aren't unless you only use them for a very narrow use case. Hybrids are the same - It's only these new 4th Gen TNGA HSDs that have finally proven to be better than my old cars - Previous ones were all less efficient than my Mk1 D4D and slower, but Toyota kept working at it and now that hard work has paid off and they have something that is undeniably better and a clear leap forward!

I just hope Toyota can pull similar magic with EVs; I just hope that doesn't mean I need to wait for the 4th gen of their EV power train as well as that might be a lot more than 10-15 years...!  

 

[ernieb]

Toyota’s design changes are generally incremental rather than radical or cutting edge but the BX4 looks to be a significant change over previous introductions in many areas of the car design, the infotainment system for one.

[Flatcoat]

The new RAV4 ushered in a new design approach that has continued with the BX4 (I thought that was an old Citroen….) and new YarisX. Personally I await developments in hydrogen fuelled ICE or synthetic petrol/diesel so while happy to have a PHEV i hope to keep it long enough for the dust to settle on the one EV solution fits all approach of European govts. 

[IanML]

I can't see H2-fuelled ICE.  If you're going to have an H2 infrastructure, you would concentrate investment on the future, i.e. Fuel Cell EV.  I'd love that, provided it was combined with Battery for regen and fast response - the all-electric hybrid.  Anyone for an FCPHEV?

[Flatcoat]

Toyota, JCB and others are already successfully trialling Hydrogen powered ICE. Even with a fuel cell the Battery weight kills large vehicles payload. Efuels are another ignored solution that can use all existing infrastructure.