Cold weather fuel consumption

[NASY]

I decided E10 would not suit my garden equipment especially anything two stroke, so I changed to electric. I do still have a petrol lawnmower/brushcutter which I run on E5. The other consideration with gardening equipment is just how long it sits unused and E10 doesn't like to rest idle for long hence I guess most PHEV owners won't use it either.

[ernieb]

6 minutes ago, NASY said:

I decided E10 would not suit my garden equipment especially anything two stroke, so I changed to electric. I do still have a petrol lawnmower/brushcutter which I run on E5. The other consideration with gardening equipment is just how long it sits unused and E10 doesn't like to rest idle for long hence I guess most PHEV owners won't use it either.

That was one of the reasons I decided to go to E5. I understand that E5 will be withdrawn in 5 years?

[TonyHSD]

39 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

I have been sceptical about this E5 - E10 argument though I have seen the point made that the newer cars are tuned for the E10

However a penny has just dropped. 

My 2014 lawn mower has been running rough, as if only firing on one cylinder (yes I know it only has one).  Difficult to start, I was having to juggle the throttle.  It would stall after a couple of cuts or if it ran into longer grass. 

Now I have no proof but think the E10 might be the cause.  My service man sniffed the tank and said the fuel smelt old and stale. 

I will still use E10 for the car and E5 for the mower. 

You can try E5 in your car and you may like it more than e10. I tend to mix now and I like to sense the difference every time I fill up with e5. The latest cars are not tuned to work on e10 any better than older cars from late 2000’s onwards. They are either compatible or not. Every single engine will like less ethanol and higher octane petrol. 👍

[Cyker]

My dad's old mower already didn't like unleaded as it was designed to run on 4 star!  

I dread to think what it would run like on E10 - It barely ran on E5 properly before it finally died!   

I find the Mk4 doesn't seem too bothered whether e.g. premiums or super, but I have started to notice differences in fuel quality; As it's gotten colder I found it seems a bit rough on Sainsburys E10 - When it's charging while stationary it's been particularly obnoxious in the cold weather, but I noticed after putting in some Shell E10 it's not as bad... the nasty diesel-esque knock seems slightly dampened, like the hammers have been wrapped in a cloth now. 

It's all very subjective tho' - Could just be I have a buildup of ear wax... 

[Derek.w]

I just use E5 on all garden equipment its easier than having one for the lawnmower then another one for the strimmer / hedgtrimmer.

[Eddiefh]

Upto now even though still mild and with full winter tyres on my car has only dropped 0.01 mpg that on a b road commute using e10 

[Roy124]

13 hours ago, Cyker said:

 seems a bit rough on Sainsburys E10 - When it's charging while stationary it's been particularly obnoxious in the cold weather, but I noticed after putting in some Shell E10 it's not as bad... the nasty diesel-esque knock seems slightly dampened, like the hammers have been wrapped in a cloth now. 

It's all very subjective tho' - Could just be I have a buildup of ear wax... 

I might try Tony's advice.  With the Yaris Cross, on cold startup the engine has a rumble (3 cylinder?) but this goes away as soon as I apply any throttle. 

Regarding my mower, during the long dry summer I think we went longer without mowing than in the winter.  The petrol in the tank in the hot weather and in the shed clearly got stale.  Same with the spare can, even in a closed can the 10% alc could have gassed off. 

1.  Will try E10. 

2. Will 'dump' the remaining fuel in the can every 4 weeks (into the car) and replace. 

 

[philip42h]

16 hours ago, Roy124 said:

My 2014 lawn mower has been running rough, as if only firing on one cylinder (yes I know it only has one).  Difficult to start, I was having to juggle the throttle.  It would stall after a couple of cuts or if it ran into longer grass. 

Now I have no proof but think the E10 might be the cause.  My service man sniffed the tank and said the fuel smelt old and stale. 

I will still use E10 for the car and E5 for the mower. 

26 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

Regarding my mower, during the long dry summer I think we went longer without mowing than in the winter.  The petrol in the tank in the hot weather and in the shed clearly got stale.  Same with the spare can, even in a closed can the 10% alc could have gassed off. 

1.  Will try E10. 

2. Will 'dump' the remaining fuel in the can every 4 weeks (into the car) and replace. 

The car is designed to run on E10 and is likely to consume relatively significant volumes of fuel - so my car runs on standard E10 on the basis of economy. I accept that it may well (will) run more sweetly on premium fuels - E5 or E10 - due to the presence of additives, and those with 'money to burn' are more than welcome to use the premium products.

My petrol powered garden tools - 4-stroke and 2-stroke - were probably designed well before E10 was readily available. I have no idea whether their fuel systems will happily accept 10% bioethanol without degradation or not. So, my garden tools still get E5, and sometimes premium E5, and that's acceptable to me since they really don't use that much fuel and the cost difference is modest in absolute terms.

I don't believe that the bioethanol 'gasses off' as such - fuel 'goes stale' due to the more volatile elements evaporating irrespective of whether it is E5 or E10. And I'd be very reluctant to pour stale fuel into my car ...

[ernieb]

I also believe that bio ethanol is more likely to absorb water and that’s probably why it ‘goes stale’.

[philip42h]

22 minutes ago, ernieb said:

I also believe that bio ethanol is more likely to absorb water and that’s probably why it ‘goes stale’.

This is a bit of an urban myth / misunderstanding.

Gasoline is hydrophobic. If you mix water into your gasoline the water droplets remain in suspension and, once ingested by the engine, bad things happen.

Ethanol is hygroscopic. If you mix a small amount of water into ethanol it will be held in solution - water held in solution will pass through an engine without causing undue problems.

But ethanol does not spend it's time reaching out into the air to pull in all the water that it can.

On the other hand, a small quantity of ethanol can be added to water contaminated gasoline to absorb the water and allow the fuel mix to be consumed by the engine in relative safety.

Either way, we don't want to mix water into our fuel ... 😉

[Cyker]

Are you sure you don't have that backwards? That's the opposite of what everyone seems to have experienced; There've been a lot of things shown where E10 has a higher tendency to draw in water from the air, and if it's left long enough this ethanol/water mix starts to settle out on the bottom of the tank where it either gets sucked into the engine, causing a troublesome start and potential engine damage, or, if it's sat for even longer, starts rusting out the floor of the tank.

A lot of people in the USA, where for some reason cars with carburettors are still relatively common, have also had their carbs destroyed because the small amount of fuel sitting in the float bowl thing draws in water from the air and it settles and rusts out the carb.

Also, one of the ways classic car people have been transforming E10 into E0, is to literally mix the right amount of water into the E10 fuel and let it settle - The ethanol and water glom together and after a while a very clear divide forms as the heavier water/ethanol mix falls to the bottom vs the lighter petrol, then they just drain it off, add some octane booster and stick the resulting E0 into their classics!

 

[ernieb]

32 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Are you sure you don't have that backwards? That's the opposite of what everyone seems to have experienced; There've been a lot of things shown where E10 has a higher tendency to draw in water from the air, and if it's left long enough this ethanol/water mix starts to settle out on the bottom of the tank where it either gets sucked into the engine, causing a troublesome start and potential engine damage, or, if it's sat for even longer, starts rusting out the floor of the tank.

A lot of people in the USA, where for some reason cars with carburettors are still relatively common, have also had their carbs destroyed because the small amount of fuel sitting in the float bowl thing draws in water from the air and it settles and rusts out the carb.

Also, one of the ways classic car people have been transforming E10 into E0, is to literally mix the right amount of water into the E10 fuel and let it settle - The ethanol and water glom together and after a while a very clear divide forms as the heavier water/ethanol mix falls to the bottom vs the lighter petrol, then they just drain it off, add some octane booster and stick the resulting E0 into their classics!

 

That’s what I’ve understood.

[philip42h]

3 hours ago, Cyker said:

Are you sure you don't have that backwards? That's the opposite of what everyone seems to have experienced; There've been a lot of things shown where E10 has a higher tendency to draw in water from the air, and if it's left long enough this ethanol/water mix starts to settle out on the bottom of the tank where it either gets sucked into the engine, causing a troublesome start and potential engine damage, or, if it's sat for even longer, starts rusting out the floor of the tank.

A lot of people in the USA, where for some reason cars with carburettors are still relatively common, have also had their carbs destroyed because the small amount of fuel sitting in the float bowl thing draws in water from the air and it settles and rusts out the carb.

Also, one of the ways classic car people have been transforming E10 into E0, is to literally mix the right amount of water into the E10 fuel and let it settle - The ethanol and water glom together and after a while a very clear divide forms as the heavier water/ethanol mix falls to the bottom vs the lighter petrol, then they just drain it off, add some octane booster and stick the resulting E0 into their classics!

Yes, I'm quite sure that I don't have it backwards.

Components in older fuel systems, carburetors in particular, are damaged by ethanol - it's the ethanol itself that causes the damage, and that is why one shouldn't use E10 (or E5, probably) in older engines.

I hadn't come across the E10 -> E0 transformation but that process makes perfect sense. In this case folk are adding copious amounts of water to the fuel, using water as a solvent to draw out the ethanol - which works because ethanol is hydrophilic. And then, as you say, the water ethanol mix falls to the bottom and they can carefully draw off the E0.

[Cyker]

Just to clarify, I'm not saying you're wrong about petrol being hydrophobic and ethanol being hygroscopic - Those are correct.

It's your interpretation of these, e.g. where you say ethanol doesn't pull water out of the air - The term "Hygroscopic" literally means it attracts/draws water out of its surroundings, as opposed to e.g. hydrophilic which just means it easily mixes with water.

Also, ethanol is minimally corrosive to most automotive metals on its own, but will attack certain types of rubber which was the original problem with E5 causing rubber seals to fail. In the case of the petrol tank and carb corrosion, it was the water drawn in by the ethanol settling on the bottom that was causing the corrosion (Perhaps in conjunction with the ethanol, as pure water also is minimally corrosive, but water + dissolved impurities like oxygen and salts is), but certainly not just the ethanol itself.

 

[philip42h]

6 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Just to clarify, I'm not saying you're wrong about petrol being hydrophobic and ethanol being hygroscopic - Those are correct.

It's your interpretation of these, e.g. where you say ethanol doesn't pull water out of the air - The term "Hygroscopic" literally means it attracts/draws water out of its surroundings, as opposed to e.g. hydrophilic which just means it easily mixes with water.

Also, ethanol is minimally corrosive to most automotive metals on its own, but will attack certain types of rubber which was the original problem with E5 causing rubber seals to fail. ...

You are correct - I got my terms wrong ... and that is possibly where this urban myth started. Ethanol is hydrophilic.

See Ethanol Does NOT Suck Water Out Of The Air +VIDEO for a good rant on this topic ... 🙂 ... and then please believe whichever version of the alternative facts that suits. 😉

(We've probably taken this thread way too far OT already 😃)

[Strangely Brown]

Well, since the RAV4 HEV owners' manual says that it is OK to use E5 or E10 you would like to think that either are perfectly OK. However, it also says that the maximum amount of ethanol allowed in the fuel is 10%. To my mind that puts E10 at the limit of permissible concentration and, personally, I would like to stay as far away as I can.

E5 all the way for me and, yes, I do notice a difference both in the way the engine feels when it running and in MPG. E5 is roughly 4mpg better (according to the display).

If you work out your own cost (pence per mile) of E5 vs E10 you might be surprised to find that E5 is not as "expensive" as you think. For me the cost is virtually identical. For the memsahib's Jimny it is actually works out 3p/mile less.

I cannot comment on cold weather consumption yet as I have not had the car over a winter and the weather at the moment is not exactly on the chilly side.
 

Of course, YMMV.

[Gray86]

21 hours ago, NASY said:

I decided E10 would not suit my garden equipment especially anything two stroke, so I changed to electric. I do still have a petrol lawnmower/brushcutter which I run on E5. The other consideration with gardening equipment is just how long it sits unused and E10 doesn't like to rest idle for long hence I guess most PHEV owners won't use it either.

I bought E5 for mine, and used Briggs & Stratton fuel fix (cheap & cleans the carb too). It’s made E5 fuel last over a year, and promises to work well with E10 too. Only a couple of quid for a shot that works with 10l 

[Cyker]

Must admit that test isn't that convincing to me (I was expecting the ethanol to evaporate and the level to go down a tiny bit!), but you're right we're getting off topic... *nervously looks around for frosty*

I do think newer cars that were designed to run on E10 cope with it better - I know a few people with E5-era engines notice that their cars don't seem to run as nice on E10, but I've tried Shell E10 and V-Power E5 on my Yaris and it doesn't make much difference (But since it's a hybrid, the difference may be so small the hybrid system is masking it). I think the unusually high compression ratio on the Mk4 probably helps.

To be fair, most cars that are now running on E10 say they aren't allowed to run on anything more than E5 so there is some margin, and I would not be at all surprised if we're moved to E15 in the future. This is the thin end of the wedge as far as I'm concerned.

TBH I don't know why they didn't add a mandate for E85 flex fuel compatibility. Most manufacturers already make flex fuel engines anyway and that would future-proof them much better if the ethanol mix creeps up and up in the future as I suspect it will.

 

[TonyHSD]

I keep mixing E5 99 mainly from Tesco and E10 95 mainly from BP both garages local to me and well known for quality of the fuel, very rare I had some issues with those two garages. I fill up three times a week, up to 100 litres and for me works well, price wise I don’t pay more because Tesco momentum 99 cost same or similar to bp 95. If I refill twice with E10 I can notice difference in engine noise and performance, if I mix them it’s fine, perhaps I am running on E7.25 😂 but the engine is running sweet and consumption is reasonable at 55mpg currently, night drive only, slightly colder temperatures. Tyres make huge difference, with summer ones the car keeps rolling and rolling, where with all season or winters the car constantly uses the engine and the Battery remains mostly low , drains a lot faster with these tyres . Hybrids love quality fuels and free rolling 👌

[Eddiefh]

Can I ask , I’m 42 but mostly drove diesel since 97 until 2 year ago when I got a petrol  , 
did the uk go from 4 star petrol to 5 percent ethanol fuel or was there a 100% petrol with no ethanol  In between times . I’m not saying it’s not doing any damage internally but I’d be hard pushed to say for certain if I didn’t know what grade was in or where it was bought and my mpg hasn’t really drop much since putting winter tyres on . 

[Cyker]

Yeah the fuel that came after 4 star was just called unleaded, and didn't have any ethanol in it.

Ethanol evaporates and burns when ignited so engines could always run on it, they just weren't optimised for it (Ideally you want a higher compression ratio and spark advance to get the most out of ethanol).

The main problem is it's a solvent and does bad things to rubber seals but we've mostly compensated for that.

The water thing has only come to be a problem with E10 because the amount of water it binds with is now more significant and if the car goes unused for long enough it will settle at the bottom, but TBH it's only really a problem on old cars that don't have sealed tanks (So air and moisture can get in) and that aren't used very often (So the water settles out).

 

[Roy124]

The following passage is about a fuel additive for Briggs and Stratton engines but some detail is relevant to thee topic:

Fuel Fit® from Briggs and Stratton is a remedial additive for ethanol-blend fuels to protect engines against the corrosive effects of ethanol.

Modern E10 unleaded petrol has a higher ethanol content, which brings the benefit of lowering emissions from petrol machines and vehicles. However, it can cause problems if the fuel is left to stand for more than a few weeks. 

The ethanol in the fuel bonds with moisture in the atmosphere and can form a layer of water inside the tank. This water then has a corrosive effect on the engine, causing silent damage.

Adding Fuel Fit to the fuel before it goes into the engine protects against corrosion, prevents contaminant build-up and wards off chemical reactions caused by dissolved metals.

Translating this to our cars, in regular use E10 should not damage your engine.  However if your usage is infrequent and refills also then E10 might become stale. 

Might it be better to run the car half empty so your fuel is refreshed more often? 

[Rhymes with Paris]

Swinging the lantern here again 😊

In around 2002 I had a Moto Morini 500 Strada v twin ,1978 vintage.

It was made well before unleaded became mandatory, never mind E10.

I used to fill it up at the last petrol station in this area to stock 4 star leaded as it did not have hardened valves.

When that stopped, I used to buy miller's octane improver and lead replacement additive to add to the tank.

It was a lovely handling bike, and despite its right foot gear change and left foot rear brake, easy to ride, and comfortable.

As re fuel consumption, I remember it did around 60 mpg.

Maybe the current owner brews his own fuel.

Edited,oh and I forgot,in the winter I used a fuel conditioner that was designed for snowmobiles left for a while, to stop the petrol turning into gorilla glue while laid up.

It worked, although whether it would with E10 or E5, I have a clue, not.

[NASY]

Paul, I thought right foot gear change was what I used to do. It was a while ago that had motorbikes though. As for the discussion on fuel, I feel like I've both learned a lot from those who seem to know about these things and at the same time get the impression that going with one's gut will generally pay off especially if that's to err on the side of caution rather than to look for the short term financial benefit, which is usually the case in all things.

[Rhymes with Paris]

12 minutes ago, NASY said:

Paul, I thought right foot gear change was what I used to do. It was a while ago that had motorbikes though. As for the discussion on fuel, I feel like I've both learned a lot from those who seem to know about these things and at the same time get the impression that going with one's gut will generally pay off especially if that's to err on the side of caution rather than to look for the short term financial benefit, which is usually the case in all things.

Yes , I have always rightly or wrongly,or even misguidedly gone for the most expensive fuel, believing it to best for engine performance and longevity.

Re the right foot gear change, I think Moto Morini were perhaps a little late to the left foot party along with the UK makers, with the popularity of UJMs into the 70s and 80s.

I had a Fazer at the same time though, and it only took 5 mins to swap muscle memory to ride smoothly.