Cold weather fuel consumption

[ernieb]

11 hours ago, Roy124 said:

 

Modern E10 unleaded petrol has a higher ethanol content, which brings the benefit of lowering emissions from petrol machines and vehicles. However, it can cause problems if the fuel is left to stand for more than a few weeks. 

The ethanol in the fuel bonds with moisture in the atmosphere and can form a layer of water inside the tank. This water then has a corrosive effect on the engine, causing silent damage.

 

This is the issue for the PHEV owners who's driving profile is lots of local non ICE mode driving with the occasional longer drive. I can go two or three weeks without the ICE kicking in other than me forcing the ICE to start to circulate the fuel.

[Cyker]

Yeah, they are more at risk, but it's not as bad as it seems - If you fill the tank, there isn't enough air for there to be significant moisture, so you're less likely to get condensation on the walls that drops into the tank as the tank runs down, as modern tanks are sealed against the environment to stop fuel vapours escaping.

Then, as long as the car is used regularly, the tank will be agitated by the movement - acceleration, braking, cornering, speed bumps, potholes, awful road surfaces etc. - so the fuel will stay mixed.

It's partly why I was advised to fill my tank when I had a diesel, as they are apparently prone to microbial growths when there is a lot of humid air in the tank, esp. when it condenses on the walls, which then fall into the tank and block the fuel filter, and filling the tank minimizes the amount of humid air that can hang around, and also reduces the likelyhood of condensation forming on the tank walls, as it can't if the walls are coated with diesel!

Petrol is more toxic so microbes are less of an issue, but the less moist atmospheric air in the tank the better so filling it when you refuel still seems like it would help reduce the chance of any water takeup in the first place.

I must admit I don't know what the 'use-by' date of various fuel types is!! Weeks? Months?? Not years I would expect...

I would imagine E10 has a lower shelf life than E0 and diesel, esp. if not stored in a sealed container, but I don't think I've seen any tests

[TonyHSD]

Someone has mentioned about 3 months for petrol before starts going bad. I have seen people start cars that have been stood for far long time , they definitely run a bit rough at the beginning. My biggest complaint about E10 is that takes away from my car performance and because my car seats at the border where from nice driving car can easily become underpowered and noisy slow box just because of poor quality fuel or E10 lower calorific numbers, for me is a huge deal to have a good fuel in and let the engine run smoothly as possible. 

[Flatcoat]

I run my RAV on E5 by using Vpower or other brand equivalents and now do the same with my newly acquired weekend toy CLK. at the moment my local Shell garage sells its Vpower at £1.66.9 which is 10p premium or 6% so quite happy to continue. 

[Rhymes with Paris]

As I said in an earlier post, the fuel conditioner designed for snowmobiles that I used in motorbikes, seems to work well for extending the shelf life of petrol.

For if you lay them up for a bit, and not easy to drain down everything.

The Moto Morini I used it on was more of a summer bike, with carbs , and not easy to start anyway, what with its left hand kick start , and as my son used to call it, the chicken dance on the kicker.

 

 

[Marcusthehat]

I have been buying E10 since we bought the car, so I suppose I am no the wiser re any performance inhibitions. And still getting very acceptable fuel economy.

P.S.

I now feel a warm glow of schafenfreud when I see the price of diesel.

Marcusthehat

[Cyker]

It is pretty shocking; I'm surprised the biodiesel industry hasn't stepped in to disrupt the market at these prices!! I didn't realize how much the world in general depended on russian diesel - We're lucky we make most of our own petrol!

 

[Smani]

Ethanol has higher octane number hence increases power and performance.  

I came from a country where from early 2000's a very large proportion of the national fleet was powered by engines called "FLEX", that could use petrol, pure ethanol or any mixed proportion of them in the tank.  My last car in that place was a mini pickup truck 1.8 which majority of the time I filled with ethanol.  Manual says for that car, power when using petrol was 140 bhp, and when using ethanol was  155 bhp, approximately 10% more.  However, the consumption was rubbish on ethanol, but the difference on price per litre still compensate at that time. Have no idea how it is nowadays.

The only problem using constantly ethanol is the lack of lubrication properties that petrol has in comparison with ethanol, even with the engines being built to resist this condition. 

Note: By that time, the regular petrol sold on the pumps already had 23% of ethanol.  They also had the "special" version with less ethanol like Shell V-power.  

[Lawnmowerman]

If you wish ethanol-free fuel it is available from your local Stihl dealer - straight fuel or 2-stroke mix.

Quote

 

 

[Flatcoat]

On 11/13/2022 at 9:11 PM, Cyker said:

It is pretty shocking; I'm surprised the biodiesel industry hasn't stepped in to disrupt the market at these prices!! I didn't realize how much the world in general depended on russian diesel - We're lucky we make most of our own petrol!

 

Do you mean bio or synthetic? Bio requires wheat which is expensive - diesel can also be made from coal or synthesised, both are very clean too however diesel has such a bad name in the west it is unlikely to return in the car fleet and will be all but extinct in 20 years. We will regret it. I suspect petrol will survive if only in synthesised form as the real world implications of going BEV become apparent to the brainwashed politicians and unelected decision makers as the public revolt against the costs of net zero cobblers. 

[Cyker]

1 hour ago, Smani said:

Ethanol has higher octane number hence increases power and performance.  

I came from a country where from early 2000's a very large proportion of the national fleet was powered by engines called "FLEX", that could use petrol, pure ethanol or any mixed proportion of them in the tank.  My last car in that place was a mini pickup truck 1.8 which majority of the time I filled with ethanol.  Manual says for that car, power when using petrol was 140 bhp, and when using ethanol was  155 bhp, approximately 10% more.  However, the consumption was rubbish on ethanol, but the difference on price per litre still compensate at that time. Have no idea how it is nowadays.

The only problem using constantly ethanol is the lack of lubrication properties that petrol has in comparison with ethanol, even with the engines being built to resist this condition. 

Note: By that time, the regular petrol sold on the pumps already had 23% of ethanol.  They also had the "special" version with less ethanol like Shell V-power.  

Yeah, ethanol only has about 60% the energy of petrol so the power drop is massive, and is why one of the upgrades a flexfuel engine needs is a more powerful/higher flow fuel pump, but you can run at much higher compression ratios to claw back some of that lost energy (I think ethanol is equivalent to 110 RON??)

I think that might be why the newer Toyota engines mostly feel okay on E10 as they are running very near the limit of compression for normal petrol (The M15A-FXE in my Mk4 Yaris is supposedly running a compression ratio of 14.1:1!!  )

 

37 minutes ago, Flatcoat said:

Do you mean bio or synthetic? Bio requires wheat which is expensive - diesel can also be made from coal or synthesised, both are very clean too however diesel has such a bad name in the west it is unlikely to return in the car fleet and will be all but extinct in 20 years. We will regret it. I suspect petrol will survive if only in synthesised form as the real world implications of going BEV become apparent to the brainwashed politicians and unelected decision makers as the public revolt against the costs of net zero cobblers. 

Bio, but not from wheat, from WVO. McD apparently uses its waste oil to make biodiesel to power its trucks, and I knew a friend of a friend who used to make his own for effectively free. Was quite funny as he used to take the waste oil from the local shops (Which they'd pay him to take apparently!), and run it through some contraption and chemicals to make it.

Basically ran his van on it for free for years, as apparently you can DIY something like 2000 litres of fuel without the taxman coming after you!

 

Synthetic fuels is just clutching at straws; Biodiesel is really easy to make from vegetable oil, but synthetic diesel and petrol is about as bad as hydrogen to create fully synthetically, as the amount of energy you put in to make it in the first place is a fraction of what you get out.

Petrol in particular is a pain to make, which is partly why they're using ethanol instead of 'biopetrol' as the 'eco' part of the fuel (Bio-petrol is a thing, but just isn't economically viable to make in bulk)

 

One of the worst things about the demonization of diesel is it's closing off an avenue of power  generation - One really good thing about the diesel cycle is it will run on pretty much anything that can a) flow and b) is combustible, whereas the petrol/otto cycle is much more limited in what it can use.

If they could figure out a way to make the diesel-cycle more clean burning, which we already had technologies for (Air-blast injection is an old technique that makes the emissions much cleaner, and this more recent ducted injection trick also showed great promise), it would have opened up the possibility for an omni-fuel engine!

[Marcusthehat]

Going on 2 years ownership with turned 18,000 on the clock, and after an 8 mile ret trip to Tescos yesterday, we popped down to Portstewart for the evening, a 34 mile return trip, 70.6 mpg on the way down and 63.4 mpg on the return trip. Oddly for such a wonderful sunny evening not much traffic on the roads, and only pootling but Portstewart was chocca, as it always is of a decent summer Sunday, day or night.

Air con running and everything else 100% normal.

Though a tad disgruntled that diesel is now cheaper than petrol in some filling stations.

[TonyHSD]

No Diesel engine in most passenger cars can be as refined as petrol hybrid power train from Toyota. I love driving my hybrid and when the weather is right and conditions are ideal the efficiency is absolutely great and the car drives so smooth that I can forget I am a driver, just enjoy and relax like been a passenger 👌⛽️⚡️

[Strangely Brown]

2 hours ago, Marcusthehat said:

Though a tad disgruntled that diesel is now cheaper than petrol in some filling stations.

Say what now?

Diesel has certainly come down a fair chunk recently but it still has a way to go to be cheaper than petrol, at least down here.

[Roy124]

Marcus, I don't know your roads there but a typical reason for the different fuel consumption there and back is typical of change of height. 

Taking 'drove down' literally suggests some driving up hill on the way home. 

[Marcusthehat]

Roy,

We are less than 40m above sea level where we live, so almost irrelevant.( But years ago when Chrysler fitted a diesel to their people carrier for the European market, and bragged about the 1,000 mile range so afforded, I scoffed when I saw they choose to start high in the Alps and "drive" down to the coast somewhere about Antwerp, like they could freewheel a significant chunk o that run)

But yes used fractionally less fuel going than returning.

To add that here in Nth Co Antrim, at most filling stations diesel is now a couple of pence cheaper than petrol, but with a few it is still the other way round.

Cheers all.

P.S.

I could still kinda get the hots for Mazdas latest diesel offering with the auto box.

Mighy test drive one?, not really serious about that because I am  fully aware of the horror stories about the previous Mazda diesels. Including the experiences of a mechanic mate.

[Strangely Brown]

4 hours ago, Strangely Brown said:

Say what now?

Diesel has certainly come down a fair chunk recently but it still has a way to go to be cheaper than petrol, at least down here.

That said, I have just been to fill up one of the cars and diesel is indeed cheaper than petrol, but only E5.

[Roy124]

I just checked.  I am at 111m.  The nearest town is 49m lower.  The next town the other was is 82m lower. 

On Friday, I got 71.5 going in to town and 67.2 returning.  The journey each was is 10 miles and of course the car is warmer on the return.

Earlier in the month my height change was 100m and the consumption difference was 8mpg.

PS, my local Shell is 143.9 which is as low as I can remember. 

 

[Cyker]

One nice thing about the newer ones is they don't take anywhere near as big a hit in hilly areas as the old ones; With the Mk3, it could match my old Mk1 D4D under ideal circumstances, but as soon as they went onto hilly areas it would take a much bigger mpg hit than the D4D.

It's very impressive that the new ones, not only match the D4D in such circumstances, but can even beat it! The D4D still has an edge if the car is fully loaded and going up lots of hills, as that diesel torque just loves to haul against such loads (My Mk4 started to struggle when the traction Battery started to run down going up a long hill on the way to Goodwood!), but in most other scenarios the newer hybrids are just amazing.

 

[Iain_M]

Glasgow Costco prices are 134.9 for petrol and 135.9 for diesel today.

Gateshead is 136.9 for diesel and petrol.

Edited May 22, 2023 by Iain_M
Update

[ColinB]

1 hour ago, Iain_M said:

Glasgow Costco prices are 134.9 for petrol and 135.9 for diesel today.

Gateshead is 136.9 for diesel and petrol.

I paid 142.9 for E10 petrol today - but it only came to £17 to fill my tank as it was for my motorbike

[Marcusthehat]

Having started working again to combat retirement boredom.

I now leave the house at 05:30 and travel 22.5miles on mostly empty good straight  "A" roads  with  some  dual carrigeway and about a final single mile of urban driving.

Been doing this run since the end of July and I simply set the cruise control for 60, though on my busier rush hour return the actual speed is a consistent 55.

So quite perfect for reasonably establishing the dfference ambient temperature makes to fuel consumption.

Anyway, apart from any temperature driven difference in fuel consumption, I note a very real difference in wet roads vis-a-vis dry roads, particularily if displacing standing water, which is kinda logical. So perhaps the preceptions around temperature driven MPG differences are also significently influenced by the associated rainfall, wetter surfaces, and indeed, standing water.

Signed,

Gibber, mutter, an twitch.

P.S.

Did I mention I was bored?

[xrhstosgr]

On 3/12/2021 at 1:21 ΜΜ, Tomv said:

Στο δικό μου Corolla έχει +5% περισσότερο καύσιμο το χειμώνα. Οδηγώ κυρίως στη δουλειά και πίσω, με τον ίδιο τρόπο, το ίδιο στυλ οδήγησης και ακόμα με καλοκαιρινά ελαστικά 🙂 

Σε μεγαλύτερες διαδρομές έχετε την ίδια κατανάλωση όπως το καλοκαίρι. Είναι πιθανώς η αρχική προθέρμανση του κινητήρα που τρώει όλο το επιπλέον καύσιμο.

that 5% you mention is a very small percentage. really how did you measure it? how do you tell such a small difference?

[Tomv]

I’m using an app where I record all my refuellings and also my Corolla show me what was the average consumption for each ride on the dashboard. And since I’m a bit obsessed with this 😉 I can usually tell in advance, what it will be. BTW Corolla readings are almost the same as the results from my app.

 My all time average is 5,53L/100km. When it’s 10C or less it rises to 5.7-5.9L.If it is 10C or more it goes down to 5.3-5.4L. I’m usually refuelling from ‘almost empty’ to full tank and my rides are 99% from home to work and back(country roads). Rarely I do city rides, but if I do it’s much higher even in summer. Don’t have much data for it but 6.5L is not unusual. My recommendation - don’t by non hybrid if you do a lot of city driving. City is hybrid’s playground 🙂

From my observations, the biggest consumption killer is wind. Same way there and back, headwind-tailwind could be something like 5.0L vs 6.5L

PS: I did the same riding with my previous car, which was 2.0L gasoline engine. The over all consumption was much higher, about 7.0L/100km, but it was almost constant through winter,summer, wind, no wing.

[xrhstosgr]

11 hours ago, Tomv said:

Χρησιμοποιώ μια εφαρμογή όπου καταγράφω όλους τους ανεφοδιασμούς μου και επίσης το Corolla μου δείχνει ποια ήταν η μέση κατανάλωση για κάθε διαδρομή στο ταμπλό. Και επειδή είμαι λίγο εμμονή με αυτό 😉 συνήθως μπορώ να πω εκ των προτέρων τι θα είναι. Οι μετρήσεις BTW Corolla είναι σχεδόν ίδιες με τα αποτελέσματα από την εφαρμογή μου.

 Ο μέσος όρος όλων των εποχών μου είναι 5,53 λίτρα/100 χλμ. Όταν είναι 10 C ή λιγότερο, αυξάνεται στα 5,7-5,9L. Εάν είναι 10C ή περισσότερο, πέφτει στα 5,3-5,4L. Συνήθως ανεφοδιάζω καύσιμα από «σχεδόν άδειο» σε γεμάτο ρεζερβουάρ και οι βόλτες μου είναι κατά 99% από το σπίτι στη δουλειά και πίσω (επαρχιακούς δρόμους). Σπάνια κάνω βόλτες στην πόλη, αλλά αν το κάνω είναι πολύ υψηλότερο ακόμα και το καλοκαίρι. Δεν έχετε πολλά δεδομένα για αυτό, αλλά τα 6,5 λίτρα δεν είναι ασυνήθιστα. Η σύστασή μου - μην κάνετε μη υβριδικό εάν οδηγείτε πολύ στην πόλη. Η πόλη είναι η παιδική χαρά των υβριδίων 🙂

Από τις παρατηρήσεις μου, ο μεγαλύτερος δολοφόνος κατανάλωσης είναι ο άνεμος. Με τον ίδιο τρόπο εκεί και πίσω, ο αντίθετος άνεμος θα μπορούσε να είναι κάτι σαν 5,0L έναντι 6,5L

ΥΓ: Έκανα την ίδια οδήγηση με το προηγούμενο αμάξι μου, που ήταν βενζινοκινητήρας 2,0 λίτρων. Η συνολική κατανάλωση ήταν πολύ μεγαλύτερη, περίπου 7,0 λίτρα/100 χλμ., αλλά ήταν σχεδόν σταθερή κατά τη διάρκεια του χειμώνα, του καλοκαιριού, του ανέμου, χωρίς φτερό.

Thanks for your informed answer
However, I have read that the fuel consumption measurements on the dashboard of the car are not reliable, for example in my own car, when I pump it lip to lip and traveling over 400/500 kilometers I pump again but the indicator always shows less consumption compared to an act I do, dividing the liters by the kilometers and multiplying by 100. I have also found this with an older Mercedes A150 model (2008)