E10 vs E5

[Steven83]

Hi guys, I see that there was a topic on this back in September with people doing trials.

as regards mpg and engine care for a hybrid what conclusions have you come to? And which brand of fuel have you found to be the best? 

Is the premium worth the extra cash, does it even out with the increased range? Thanks 

[Cyker]

So for my Yaris Mk4 it's made smeg-all difference, but some people like TonyHSD, who also has an Auris hybrid, have found the performance fuels do improve the way the engine responds noticeably. I think the hybrids haven't been affected too much by the E5->E10 in terms of mpg tho' - The cold weather is having a much bigger effect!

 

[Steven83]

19 minutes ago, Cyker said:

So for my Yaris Mk4 it's made smeg-all difference, but some people like TonyHSD, who also has an Auris hybrid, have found the performance fuels do improve the way the engine responds noticeably. I think the hybrids haven't been affected too much by the E5->E10 in terms of mpg tho' - The cold weather is having a much bigger effect!

 

Thanks cyker, to be honest I don’t care about performance as regards speed or engine noise, all I care about is economy and of course I don’t want to be causing and unnecessary wear on the engine or fuel system. 
 

so if e5 only provides a benefit when it comes to a smooth ride and engine response then I won’t bother. 
 

ive currently got a courtesy car which is a 2021 Corolla sport tourer, I’m shocked to be averaging 43mpg out of it and that’s driving normally without flooring it. 
it’s the 2.0 engine tho so maybe no so economical. 
 

p.s if the smeg all comment is a sign you are a red dwarf fan then good on ya 😁👍🏻

[Cyker]

Funnily enough someone else was complaining about the Corolla 2.0 hybrid not returning the mpg they expected in another thread. I knew it wasn't as economical as the 1.8 but it seems to be particularly sensitive to the temperature or something - I know it's set up more for performance than economy, but you'd hope for at least 50's mpg...

Theoretically E10 should give slightly worse mpg, 1-1.5%, over E5, but they were cunning and timed it with the onset of winter so we don't really know yet - I won't be able to say until we get to summer and I see if I can still get 80+ mpg out of this beast!  

I think it should, as the Mk4 was designed to run on E10. The Auris was made when E5 was the norm so I'd expect a bigger hit, but we're still only talking a couple mpg down so might not even be noticeable, and as I mentioned the hybrid system helps mask it.

The best advice is just to minimise short journeys, as the longer the car's running the more efficient it is, and don't let the fuel stay unused for a long time!

 

And yes, a huge fan! Best show the BBC ever made!  

 

[TonyHSD]

Honestly the difference between E5 and E10 is day and night. With E10 the engine sounds like there is no oil inside, it feels way underpowered, and makes the whole driving experience unpleasant at least to say. Even when filling up at the garage e10 doesn’t smell like petrol, it has no smell at all., I call it a dry fuel, less lube properties and obviously more friction so shorter engine life imo.  I am high miles motorway driver and find the E5 99 much better for the car, plus I buy mostly from local Tesco and the price is the same as 95 E10 from bp or Shell. Like fuel consumption the colder weather will affect your car more than the ethanol content but the later doesn’t help either. My car is from first gen 3 production 2010 and they have known issues with engine knocking on cold start and since I have used E5 99 never had any problems at all. Also the transition from electric to petrol is seamless with premium petrol where with e10 its jerky and loud. All in all E5 wins. 

[Steven83]

10 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Honestly the difference between E5 and E10 is day and night. With E10 the engine sounds like there is no oil inside, it feels way underpowered, and makes the whole driving experience unpleasant at least to say. Even when filling up at the garage e10 doesn’t smell like petrol, it has no smell at all., I call it a dry fuel, less lube properties and obviously more friction so shorter engine life imo.  I am high miles motorway driver and find the E5 99 much better for the car, plus I buy mostly from local Tesco and the price is the same as 95 E10 from bp or shell. Like fuel consumption the colder weather will affect your car more than the ethanol content but the later doesn’t help either. My car is from first gen 3 production 2010 and they have known issues with engine knocking on cold start and since I have used E5 99 never had any problems at all. Also the transition from electric to petrol is seamless with premium petrol where with e10 its jerky and loud. All in all E5 wins. 

That’s interesting Tony, I have 2015 pre face lift model. Not had it long enough to judge the mpg in winter but I do want to take care of the engine.

 

so you would recommend Tesco premium over other supermarkets or branded fuel? 

[Steven83]

10 hours ago, Cyker said:

 

And yes, a huge fan! Best show the BBC ever made!  

 

Agreed! I ended up watching an episode last night after your smeg comment 😆

 

I guess mine is mark 2 or 3 as it’s a 2015 auris pre face lift so I’ll try out the different fuels in summer when can get a good idea. 
 

I only drive short journeys really so not getting the best out of the car but coming from a 3.0 bmw that needed mechanic bills most months I still saving a fortune. 

[TonyHSD]

1 minute ago, Steven83 said:

That’s interesting Tony, I have 2015 pre face lift model. Not had it long enough to judge the mpg in winter but I do want to take care of the engine.

 

so you would recommend Tesco premium over other supermarkets or branded fuel? 

Tesco fuels from all supermarkets are the best, the worst are Morrison and Sainsbury.,at least in and around London. I make judgment by that how the car drives and the efficiency., engine noise and responsiveness.  Previously I was using often BP 95 E5 before September 2021 and the car was doing great, long range and nice work of the engine but since the new standard E10 arrived all has changed. Another member was mentioned a few times that he uses Tesco momentum 99 E5 for a long time and I decided to try, lol what a difference immediately felt, it’s like I was driving before without oil and with low psi in all tyres🤔🧐😐 Shell garages quality differ a lot, my local one is no go there. Tried few times esso premium and was the same as Tesco but at higher price. Best to try different types and places and wherever you find best performance-price-efficiency ratio stick with that garage. This is now what I do , it’s bit like getting ready for electric car, fill up only at one place (charge at home)🤣✅

[Saxmaniac]

9 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Tesco fuels from all supermarkets are the best, the worst are Morrison and Sainsbury.,at least in and around London. I make judgment by that how the car drives and the efficiency., engine noise and responsiveness.  Previously I was using often BP 95 E5 before September 2021 and the car was doing great, long range and nice work of the engine but since the new standard E10 arrived all has changed. Another member was mentioned a few times that he uses Tesco momentum 99 E5 for a long time and I decided to try, lol what a difference immediately felt, it’s like I was driving before without oil and with low psi in all tyres🤔🧐😐 Shell garages quality differ a lot, my local one is no go there. Tried few times esso premium and was the same as Tesco but at higher price. Best to try different types and places and wherever you find best performance-price-efficiency ratio stick with that garage. This is now what I do , it’s bit like getting ready for electric car, fill up only at one place (charge at home)🤣✅

That's really strange because on mine which is 2018 model, it runs exactly the same and economy is worse but only the expected reduction due to temperature. I wonder if these later ones were tweaked to run better on E10

[Mooly]

This is quite interesting reading. The link is probably on here in another thread somewhere, however:

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1529859/e10-fuel-changes-classic-car-garage-problems-issues-damage

Fwiw if was asked now whether I feel my non hybrid car runs the same, better or worse over these last few weeks/months I would honestly say better. E10 is one change, cooler/colder weather another and also me using 10/40 oil. Whatever the reason/s, mine is running better than ever... as the saying goes ymmv.

Carry on 🙂   

 

 

[Cyker]

The Express tend to be a bit sensationalist, but it's well known that E10, and E5, shouldn't be used in classic cars, esp. ones with carbs as they both draw in water, and water settling in a metal fuel tank or a carburettor will start to corrode them...

The extra E in the E10 does have a few advantages - It acts like a solvent and will eat away at any cruddy deposits in the fuel system and clean any plaque building up in injectors over time. If the petrol companies are smart they could save some money on their additive packages by reducing the cleaning agents and octane boosters they normally put in, and add more dispersants to keep any water suspended in the fuel instead of clumping up.

 

[trashman1965]

Not had chance to do fair comparison on Corolla yet, but both previous Auris I always ran on Shell V-Power - always got slightly better economy* and overall the engine was smoother. Certainly above 50MPH, transition between engine producing power or just being turned was noticeably smoother engaging power again (and by this I mean 50MPH+ on overrun, then applying slight throttle). I only just had the MY18 Auris when E10 was offically launched, but no reason to suspect it would have shown anything different to the regular/Super differences.

Edited December 8, 2021 by trashman1965
*Increase in economy did not outweigh additional cost - just nicer to drive

[trashman1965]

So resurrecting this as now had a chance to repeat pretty much an identical long journey.

Got my car in Sept last year, in November drove down to Devon for the day. For some obscure reason, I picked the wrong oump and filled with Shell fuel save E10 instead of my normal v-power E5. Previous 2 auris hybrid always ran a but smoother and about 5% better mpg.

Now yesterday repeated the drive, but fuelled with E5 (and has been for ever since the fill with E10), a bit warmer, and now nearly 6K on the clock. Likely smoother/better driving/use of hybrid as now used to the car. One person less in the car this time.

Net result...best trip yet. By 1 MPG 🤣

OK in no way scientific but previous comparison with Shell fuel save vs vpower tank by tank was obvious difference.

So I am not convinced the latest hybrid drive train are tuned quite the same and less advantage with vpower on mpg as used to be (maybe the tuning map suits the higher ethanol content now).

Other thing I noticed is there is a slight difference between MPG shown on head unit and on dash. Dash set to MPG for tank. It was anything from 0.2 to 0.7 MPG more on the dash and the range was identical. Not bothered, just figured it was odd. I usually reset using "update" on the head unit and both reset. Never compared before. Only thing I can think is the dash reset because it saw the tank filled (I topped off with E5 vpower before return trip but deliberately didn't reset as I was interested in round trip). Nothing more than curious really...

I'm going to reset on next tank and could even be doing same trip again next week so will test on E1

[Cyker]

Theoretically V-Power should not normally give more mpg as it has less % fuel than normal petrol; The only cases where it can is in high-compression engines and turbo engines, where the high knock resistance allows the engine to tune itself for better thermal efficiency.

It can help bring back mpg, as the reason it has less fuel is that it has more % cleaning additives, but that has diminishing returns.

I don't think the hybrid engines can make full advantage of the high octane so most of the time it doesn't give much benefit, but it will keep the engine in slightly better condition because of the cleaning additives and, assuming V-Power is still using a synthetic fuel blend, burns more cleanly than normal dino juice.

Not so sure of the benefits nowadays, as E10 also has less energy in it than straight petrol, and the E also acts as an additional cleaning agent.

[TonyHSD]

The difference in fuel consumption between E5 and E10 might be minimal in warmer weather. This perhaps might also explain why in Brazil many cars easily run on E85, with average temperatures of 24C° all year around. Something to do with calorific values and air temperature. Here some interesting facts https://www.sciencedaily.com/releases/2011/06/110606075634.htm

My car seems to deliver same or very similar fuel consumption from both types E5 and E10, but there is significant difference in performance in favour to E5 99., the car simply is quieter and more responsive, nicer to drive especially on A roads and motorways. 👍⛽️

[m456an]

Yeah car is more responsive on E5, it is a much better driving experience. For the issue of mpg it is probably better to check one's tire pressure, one tire with low pressure can significantly lower the mpg. 

[TonyHSD]

After a couple of months only been using E10 95 I am back to E5 99 from my local Tesco, the price £1.82 per litre matches my favourite BP E10 95 therefore no difference to the wallet. Let see how the car will feel. Will report tomorrow ⛽️👌

[Derek.w]

My Mk3 Yaris 1.33 year 2014 ran well on E10

It lacked power when aircon was on going up a steep hill and turning right after stopping at the trafic lights but then again same problem on E5 fuel just use to turn aircon off for this hill.

 

[Cyker]

The 1NR-FE doesn't really have the torque to run AC without noticeable power loss unless you rev it past 3000rpm. To be fair, no small NA petrol engine does - It's only on small turbodiesels you don't get such a noticeable impact on performance or economy.

One nice thing about hybrids and EVs is the electric AC compressor isn't tied to engine rpm so it doesn't incur the massive fuel penalty petrol engines running at low rpm and closed throttles trying to also run the AC compressor do.

[Steven83]

Must admit I’ve tried both E10 and E5 and not really noticed much if any difference to the range, only a reasonable difference on the wallet. 
 

If E5 really does help the engine and prolong its life then I guess it’s worth it, but if it’s about fuel then I think you are paying for the small amount of additional range anyway. 

[Guest]

11 hours ago, Cyker said:

The 1NR-FE doesn't really have the torque to run AC without noticeable power loss

I wouldn't know about that because the a.c. is on all the time. Must remember to temporarily switch off for a faster traffic lights Grand Prix start.

[TonyHSD]

Definitely there is a difference, most noticeable is the engine noise, then slightly better acceleration and throttle response, mpg it’s the same in my case and driving style. The thing is that cheaper E10 from supermarkets is way worse than top quality E10 from my local BP, which almost matches E5 from Tesco for performance.
Every single garage fuel qualities are slightly different from the other, even the garages in comparison are under the same brand, two Tescos fuels are not the same and this applies to all petrol stations. I noticed that long ago and I found my favourite ones and I keep going back there. ⛽️👌

[Guest]

On 8/6/2022 at 10:40 AM, mrpj1 said:

I wouldn't know about that because the a.c. is on all the time

Well, the compressor will cycle on and off depending on the load needed from the heat exchanger. Once your car is sufficiently cool the compressor will cycle off again.

I also leave my AC switched on 100% of the time, to suppress mildew growth on the fabric seats.

[Guest]

Yes, of course it does, either by magnetic clutch or variable swashplate.

Mine is the latter and the swashplate varies position depending on demand. It is not cycling on and off as in a clutch arrangement. Unlike the condensor (heat exchanger) cooling fan which does cycle on and off to regulate the refrigerant high side pressure and condense the gas.

Therefore, if I have to execute a Grand Prix getaway I do need to switch off fully rather than wait for an "off" cycle.

 

[forkingabout]

10 minutes ago, mrpj1 said:

Therefore, if I have to execute a Grand Prix getaway I do need to switch off fully rather than wait for an "off" cycle.

 

All the various automotive air conditioning systems I've looked at / worked on over the years fitted to ICE vehicles will disengage the compressor clutch to reduce engine load if the driver presses the accelerator pedal fully down.