Corolla HB/TS Brake hold control

[PhilMoreau]

I have searched the forum without any success regarding brake hold control function. Just emailed Toyota with the same comment. The brake hold control when activated turns the brake lights on. This is one of my pet hates, being blinded by the vehicle in front, the driver keeping his/her foot on the brake pedal instead of applying the hand brake. In fact the highway code says:-

114
You must not

• use any lights in a way which would dazzle or cause discomfort to other road users, including pedestrians, cyclists and horse riders
• use front or rear fog lights unless visibility is seriously reduced. You must switch them off when visibility improves to avoid dazzling other road users (see Rule 226).

In stationary queues of traffic, drivers should apply the parking brake and, once the following traffic has stopped, take their foot off the footbrake to deactivate the vehicle brake lights. This will minimise glare to road users behind until the traffic moves again.
Law RVLR reg 27

[Catlover]

Problem is that motorists do not update themselves, or remind themselves, what the Highway Code says…. That’s if they knew what it says in the first place.I am as guilty as anyone in not refreshing myself on what it says.

[Rosgoe]

Glad you cleared that one up I did wonder wether it applied the brake lights won’t bother using it in future will just keep my foot on the brake pedal I wonder if it was the same with the 2015 auris I had as you had to apply extra pressure to the brake pedal to engage brake hold then take your foot of the break pedal 

[PhilMoreau]

"in future will just keep my foot on the brake pedal"

Sorry but your missing the point. The hold control has the same as keeping your foot on the brake pedal, brake lights will be on blinding the driver behind.

[PhilMoreau]

How true Rosgoe and in fact the high way code has to be, by nature so complex and different than when you and I passed our test. The question is, why have Toyota decided to go against the UK High Way Code?? Also how many of you in the forum are guilty of blinding the driver behind you?

[Rosgoe]

6 minutes ago, PhilMoreau said:

"in future will just keep my foot on the brake pedal"

Sorry but your missing the point. The hold control has the same as keeping your foot on the brake pedal, brake lights will be on blinding the driver behind.

Yes I realise that if the brake lights are on with your foot on the brake pedal or with brake hold then there is not much that can be done about that. Must be a design fault with Toyota when I had the auris it had a manual hand brake and I used to use that and take my foot off the brake pedal. Other than put it into park every time which would put additional ware on the mechanisms and would be inconvenient I don’t see an alternative.

[Cyker]

Yeah, I hate that as well - I'm quite light sensitive, esp. around dusk, and have a special loathing of people giving me migraines with their excessively bright brake lights and poorly levelled head lights.

90% of people would fail their driving test on the brake light thing alone if they drove the test the way they normally drive!

I would literally be the only person in the whole log-jam who went to handbrake and neutral when stationary when I was driving a manual car: Even in a 2 hour motorway pileup, I'd still see a sea of brake lights for the whole time!! Even when I'd gotten so bored not only was I in handbrake+neutral but I'd also switched the engine off! How the vast majority of drivers can hold down the brake pedal for 2 hours just boggles my brain!

 

However... I'm ashamed to say, but since owning the Mk4 Yaris I have joined the dark side (Or maybe the Blinding Red Light side)

There are a few reasons - My issue is there is no handbrake, just the EPB, and it's incredibly inconvenient to use - It is too small and you can't just reach for it without looking or feeling around for it. It is utterly unfit for purpose as a prime control, and after trying to integrate it into my driving I gave up and have never touched that stupid switch since. It's also very slow to disengage, and when it is engaged the hybrid system pulls against it constantly, which I'm sure will start to damage the electric motors if I was doing this regularly. (I complained to Toyota about this but even tho' there is zero reason for it to do this in an EV or hybrid, they won't change how it works 'because that's how people expect automatics to work' according to them...)

I could put it into N to stop that pull, but then the car complains and tells me to put it into P or D after a few moments, and starts to do weird things like fire up the ICE but not charge the Battery. The manual also tells you not to use N in normal use.

I had also just tried putting it into P when stopped, but quickly discovered that, because the shift selector is just a straight line, it's really hard to go from P to D without looking - I find I either end up in B or N sometimes! I'm also acutely aware that I am flashing my reverse light every time I go to and from P, which I also really don't want to do! And because it uses the EPB, it is also slow to disengage.

So that leaves the brake hold... It is much more intuitive than the EPB, disengages much faster than the EPB, doesn't flash the reverse lights, and you fit in with the rest of the sea of brake lights.

I have just caved in now - I was arguing in another thread about using side-lights instead of dipped main beams but apparently people think that is okay in low light, but not dark, situations, so at this point I figure if I can't beat 'em, join 'em!

 

[Gray86]

It’s the same with all modern automatics - my previous golf was the same. If you look around in any traffic queue 90% of cars have the brake lights on, it’s basically ‘normal’ now, despite it being at odds with the Highway Code. 

[PhilMoreau]

57 minutes ago, Rosgoe said:

Yes I realise that if the brake lights are on with your foot on the brake pedal or with brake hold then there is not much that can be done about that. Must be a design fault with Toyota when I had the auris it had a manual hand brake and I used to use that and take my foot off the brake pedal. Other than put it into park every time which would put additional ware on the mechanisms and would be inconvenient I don’t see an alternative.

It is not a design error. Design errors are events that were not intended. The software needs to be reprogrammed, foot on brake = brake lights on, is hold engaged Y/N Y= illuminate dash hold indicator, activate timer, after 1 second extinguish brake lights. Simples

[PhilMoreau]

3 minutes ago, Gray86 said:

It’s the same with all modern automatics - my previous golf was the same. If you look around in any traffic queue 90% of cars have the brake lights on, it’s basically ‘normal’ now, despite it being at odds with the Highway Code. 

It may be the norm but as far as blinding your fellow road users are concerned it is totally irresponsible and down to the car manufactures to comply with the UK High Way Code. 

[TonyHSD]

35 minutes ago, Gray86 said:

It’s the same with all modern automatics - my previous golf was the same. If you look around in any traffic queue 90% of cars have the brake lights on, it’s basically ‘normal’ now, despite it being at odds with the Highway Code. 

I agree with you, Highway Code needs updating for many things and this is one of these.
When stopping for a minute only it’s practically overwhelming to select P or N and apply handbrake or put the car into any brake assist mode or whatever just to turn off your brake lights, the person behind should keep longer distance and not watching directly into the brake lights, ok if you about to wait over a minute or two then it’s even logical to set the car into N, P or B to turn off your brake lights and release the pressure in the brake system. Sometimes I even keep my brakes ON on purpose even knowing that it’s against Highway Code just make sure that the rally drivers approaching behind can see me I am stationary and not rear ended me. 

[Cyker]

I don't think they would be allowed to extinguish the brake light while the 'brake pedal' is pushed in, even on the brake hold - I'm certain that'd fail homologation.

The system will put on the EPB automatically if the brake hold is engaged for a long time (I found this out when stuck in traffic once, as the car flashed up a warning then suddenly lurched forwards as MG2 started pulling against the newly-engaged EPB!)

It's just an unfortunate result of the way things have evolved, partly rooted in the behaviour of torque converter automatics.

The only way it could be 'fixed' to be usable for me is if Toyota put a proper hand brake in and disabled the creep when stationary - Neither of these things are likely to happen.

 

21 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

 Sometimes I even keep my brakes ON on purpose even knowing that it’s against Highway Code just make sure that the rally drivers approaching behind can see me I am stationary and not rear ended me. 

Yes!! I've also had experienced something in the same vein in my old manual cars, where I've been waiting in traffic in handbrake and neutral, and some moron has come up behind me and then tried to go around and cut in front of me because they thought I was parked!!

Well now they can kiss my generously proportioned Yaris's LEDs!  

[FROSTYBALLS]

Government consulted earlier this year on updating the Highway Code, and as far as I'm aware, are working through the consultation currently. 

I would presume that EU/UK Whole Vehicle Type Approval supercedes the legislation in the Highway Code, which was last updated in 2015.

[Cyker]

Oh god no, they'll just change things that were fine and leave the things that do need to be fixed!  

[AndrueC]

3 hours ago, PhilMoreau said:

How true Rosgoe and in fact the high way code has to be, by nature so complex and different than when you and I passed our test. The question is, why have Toyota decided to go against the UK High Way Code?? Also how many of you in the forum are guilty of blinding the driver behind you?

This aspect of the HWC hasn't changed in decades. I used to hate this practice but since 90% of drivers have been doing this for years I'd say the horse has bolted on this one. My Corolla and my previous car both had features that encouraged keeping your foot on the brakes so I've given in and joined the crowd.

Also if you find brake lights genuinely dazzling you should get your eyes tested. I'm not trying to be funny, it's a serious suggestion. They've never dazzled me and unless the majority of people are dazzled (and it seems unlikely based on how many people do it) I doubt that it's a violation of the HWC. It's just unfortunate if someone has a medical condition that causes them a problem and the onus is on them to find a solution.

Cars are always putting their brakes on while driving through urban areas (me far less than most but even I occasionally need to brake) so complaining that they dazzle you is a recipe for having DVLA pull your license 😉

[Stopeter44]

11 hours ago, AndrueC said:

Also if you find brake lights genuinely dazzling you should get your eyes tested. I'm not trying to be funny, it's a serious suggestion. They've never dazzled me and unless the majority of people are dazzled (and it seems unlikely based on how many people do it) I doubt that it's a violation of the HWC. It's just unfortunate if someone has a medical condition that causes them a problem and the onus is on them to find a solution.

I would second that. For years, I had a problem with cars having fog lamps on, in particular. I suffered from astigmatism, but needed glasses for reading. With age, cataracts develop for most people, and I had my first operation when I was 56, which is relatively young.

Modern implants to treat cataracts are a miracle, IMO, my eyesight has never been better*, and I no longer have the astigmatism problem. I avoid driving at night, most of the time I don't have to, but, nowadays, it doesn't stress me as it once did before the cataract operations.

(*Of course, I imagine when I was child it was better!)

[PhilMoreau]

12 hours ago, Cyker said:

I don't think they would be allowed to extinguish the brake light while the 'brake pedal' is pushed in, even on the brake hold - I'm certain that'd fail homologation.

The system will put on the EPB automatically if the brake hold is engaged for a long time (I found this out when stuck in traffic once, as the car flashed up a warning then suddenly lurched forwards as MG2 started pulling against the newly-engaged EPB!)

It's just an unfortunate result of the way things have evolved, partly rooted in the behaviour of torque converter automatics.

The only way it could be 'fixed' to be usable for me is if Toyota put a proper hand brake in and disabled the creep when stationary - Neither of these things are likely to happen.

 

Yes!! I've also had experienced something in the same vein in my old manual cars, where I've been waiting in traffic in handbrake and neutral, and some moron has come up behind me and then tried to go around and cut in front of me because they thought I was parked!!

Well now they can kiss my generously proportioned Yaris's LEDs!  

I think that my original post has been misconstrued. By default with your seat belt on, pressing the hold button activates this feature. When sufficient foot brake pressure is applied the car switches to hold mode, all brakes activated, brake lights on. This mode is equivalent to park but the driver did not have to move the gear selector. Now for the change to make HWC people happy, after one second of brake lights on they are extinguished automatically.

And yes I have had eye operations, a trabeculectomy and glaucoma. The DLVA are interested in these medical conditions in my case, the rules are here https://glaucoma.uk/care-support/driving-with-glaucoma/ even driving with only one eye is permissible. 

[RzrAzr]

disabling the brake light would be very irresponsible as you will quickly find someone rear ending you. I honestly never had a problem with stop lights, just don't ride too close.

 

[TonyHSD]

I do have problems with this matter sometimes especially when some large suv with ultra bright led happens to be on the front in a very dark place or it’s raining outside adds an extra discomfort, but the biggest enemy to driver and disturbing lights I believe is tiredness. When you are tired every light source is annoying to you and these bright leds are not helping either. Can not comment about the function of the Corolla as I have older Toyota that hasn’t got either leds nor electronic brake. 

[PhilMoreau]

45 minutes ago, RzrAzr said:

disabling the brake light would be very irresponsible as you will quickly find someone rear ending you. I honestly never had a problem with stop lights, just don't ride too close.

 

Not having any brake lights on is just the same as putting the car into park, or are you saying put the car into park and keep your foot on the brake pedal?

[RzrAzr]

3 minutes ago, PhilMoreau said:

Not having any brake lights on is just the same as putting the car into park, or are you saying put the car into park and keep your foot on the brake pedal?

I’m saying not having brake lights when the car is stationary but on the road is dangerous, regardless of how you are achieving being stationary, park mode, handbrake, brake hold etc. 

[Rambler56]

None of this is new.  When Volvo first introduced daytime front driving lights in the 70s people would flash them all the time to let them know they had left their lights on (maybe a throwback to the old dynamo charging issues cars had before alternators i.e. leave nothing on if you don't want to flatten your battery).  When the first high level brake lights were introduced there was outrage from drivers who complained about being blinded by the intensity of the lights at eye level.  Fast forward to most cars now having daytime driving lights - my pet hate is people not understanding their rear lights are not on and they can appear 'invisible' when you are approaching from behind.  Maybe it's time to adopt some European driving rules i.e. make it mandatory to switch on 'dipped' lights when light is poor or when it starts raining.  Oh, and make it compulsory on driving tests to demonstrate where all of the switches for fog lights and rear wipers are and how they work😉

[Cyker]

Even turning the brake light off after 1 second would probably make the car fail homologation.

The issue is the two brake systems are not equivalent - Not having the brake lights on using the hydraulic brakes is NOT like having it in Park:

The hydraulic brake system is designed to slow the car from any speed and react quickly to driver input - It is *NOT* designed to hold the car stationary for long periods of time unattended, so the brake lights have to be on to show when it is used, regardless of whether it is being operated by the driver or the car.

The reason the lights can be off with the 'parking' brake applied is that it is a permanent/static brake which can hold the car indefinitely without any active systems in operation. This is also why it's been cable-operated for so long, until the advent of the EPB has switched to screw clamps on the calipers.

 

Edit: I had the same argument in another thread about the sidelights - I'm already quite anti-DRL, and I hate that the auto light system goes straight from blinding DRLs to blinding dipped beams instead of using the sidelights in low-light conditions, where visibility is not a problem, just reduced - IMHO dipped beams should only be on to help YOU see the road - The sidelights are there for the same reason as the DRLs, to help OTHER road users see YOU, but in low light conditions! DRLs are far to bright for low level conditions - The massive contrast difference is painful, esp. on older cars where DRLs are not diffuse LEDs, but basically small main beams!

 

[Roy124]

2 hours ago, Rambler56 said:

  Oh, and make it compulsory on driving tests to demonstrate where all of the switches for fog lights and rear wipers are and how they work😉

Oh no, I'd fail 😁

After a lot of summer day driving it takes a moment to adjust. 

As for rear lights, how many people actually know what happens behind them? 

One thing I do is allow the ACC to stop the car at traffic lights.  After a period the EPB engages.  I have no idea how my rear lights behave. 

[Roy124]

Mention of the Highway Code and operation of the brakes prompts a question. 

Can you imagine a person taught to drive in a semi autonomous car?

The examiner gets in to car which has been carefully parked using parallel parking. The student gets in, presses Start - no pre-start checks as the car is dead. Check EPB Red light on.  Press Hold check light on.  Check mirrors, select right indicator, select D or R as commanded and keep hands off the wheel. 

Reversing, eyes in look at display.  Parallel park or reverse park, press button slect D and R as instructed.