Moving to Electric

[Steve Whits]

I moved to Lincolnshire a few months ago and am doing less driving now so have taken the leap to electric with a Kia E Niro 4. Just a shame that Toyota don't manufacture any yet and I think they have definitely missed an opportunity. I will take delivery on 5th January :)

[Stopeter44]

2 hours ago, Steve Whits said:

Just a shame that Toyota don't manufacture any yet and I think they have definitely missed an opportunity.

You were a relatively early adopter of hybrid Technology, it took me 25 years to catch on, I'll soon be taking delivery of my first hybrid. I spoke to a friend the other day, we hadn't spoken in a few months, he has ordered a hybrid, too.

There are plenty of people, like me, who wish to make a transition to a cleaner car, but are not confident they will be able to do everything they did with an ICE car without worries. A lot of these people would be people with no secure parking, so no possibility to charge at home. I think Toyota are/were very pragmatic in their choices. 

[Steve Whits]

I think we'll become a nation of trailing cables across footpaths for some. But yes I don't disagree.

[HSDish]

there is some thoughts about similar issue here

I too think it´s a pitty that there isn´t any Toyota alternative such as, for ex Kia e Niro or e Soul  which You even can buy used at reasonable prices, today

[furtula]

I would understand all that if we had some miraculous way to make electricity abundant, and with low emissions, but that's still not the case.

Getting more and more  people to go EV will just cause more emissions, and more strain on Electrical grid, and everyone just turns a blind eye.

Not to mention range decrease over time, and car loosing very big chunk of it's value in some 7-8 years due to Battery pack being on it's last legs.

I prefer Toyota's way of self charging rather than full EV, or even plug in.

[Catlover]

Technology is moving so fast I personally do not think a change to pure EV is the right time. Nissan Leaf and Renault Zoe have led the field for a good few years but their technology is “old hat” now. Battery development is moving forward, getting smaller, getting more powerful, more miles. Infrastructure, in my opinion, is way behind and will take some serious action to catch up to where vehicles are. Few of my journeys will be beyond the range of a vehicle, but they sure would cause a problem when they do occur.

[TonyHSD]

Electric cars are the way forward, it is obvious and there is no way back to fossil fuel. Battery power as we know it might not be exactly what would have power all Evs in near future. Anyway the time will show us. Most important thing when buying a new car is to be the right car for your needs, for some people can be an ev, phev, self charging hybrids or simply an ice car with either petrol or Diesel engine., once you have you correct understanding of your needs and you picked the most suitable one, you can’t go wrong. Good luck to all with whatever car they like and buy. ⛽️🔋🏁✅👍 

[Cyker]

I'm with catlover - To me we're in the Prius Mk2 stage of EV's. They're better for some people with specific use cases, but have a ways to go before they're good for the majority too.

Personally, I specifically want one that is both small, but also has a lot of range as I want to use the public charging infrastructure as little as possible, maybe once or twice a year tops - The cost is already creeping up with them, and I don't want to be at the mercy of them setting the prices. Heck, it's still in its infancy and we've already got some providers charging 70p/kW!!

I really wanted an EV so I keep an eye on how it's progressing, but right now my Yaris is actually on par/cheaper to run than many of the EVs that come even close to its range (NB: If only using public charging, and only using contactless, not these lock-in membership schemes where you need a special fob or an app), and that's pretty bad considering one of the main selling points of EVs is they're cheap to 'fuel'.

The sweet spot is if you can charge at home and your 90% round trip is within the range of the EV - Then they make far more economical sense. Unfortunately I want at least 300miles at 70mph with AC/heater on for the latter, and we're nowhere near that yet...!

 

[TonyHSD]

36 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I'm with catlover - To me we're in the Prius Mk2 stage of EV's. They're better for some people with specific use cases, but have a ways to go before they're good for the majority too.

Personally, I specifically want one that is both small, but also has a lot of range as I want to use the public charging infrastructure as little as possible, maybe once or twice a year tops - The cost is already creeping up with them, and I don't want to be at the mercy of them setting the prices. Heck, it's still in its infancy and we've already got some providers charging 70p/kW!!

I really wanted an EV so I keep an eye on how it's progressing, but right now my Yaris is actually on par/cheaper to run than many of the EVs that come even close to its range (NB: If only using public charging, and only using contactless, not these lock-in membership schemes where you need a special fob or an app), and that's pretty bad considering one of the main selling points of EVs is they're cheap to 'fuel'.

The sweet spot is if you can charge at home and your 90% round trip is within the range of the EV - Then they make far more economical sense. Unfortunately I want at least 300miles at 70mph with AC/heater on for the latter, and we're nowhere near that yet...!

 

Why do you need 300 miles at 70mph? , for the rest I understand and to me make no sense to buy a new electric car and use no heating or AC! I do believe that many people are unnecessary worried about Evs and most likely because they actually never had one it looks very strange and sort of complicated., actually it’s not. Any ev that can do 120-140+ miles on one charge is suitable for most people as long as they have their own parking with charging facilities, or cheap way of charging it. Public chargers should never be considered as only way of power source and only be used in extreme situations on the go. Not sure for Yaris replacement as ev perhaps Honda e or Corsa e and 308 e, but for Corolla/ Prius there is absolute alternative at the same price as Toyota hybrid models with range of around 170 real world miles, heating, ac, heated seats radio, everything. , it’s perhaps one of the best Evs at that price point of £30k with excellent warranty etc. Its the only ev that I have access currently but it does feel very well put together, very Toyota like product, it’s Hyundai ionic electric. What makes it so cool is that has only 38kw/h Battery but can do range almost as Vw id3 that has 45 or 58kw/h Battery. You want £30k electric, look no further. , you like German cars get an id3. 

[Cyker]

A few reasons - It's about the furthest I'd drive without a decent-length break, and is also roughly the longest round-trip I do semi-regularly.

I specifically say 70mph, just to put down a figure. Partly as I will be doing such a long journey at the maximum speed I can to minimize travel time, because I want to spend as much time *there* as possible, rather than *driving there*  

But also because all the EV ranges they quote are just lies, like the old NEDC MPG figures - They are at ideal temps with no AC or heating and 30mph. As soon as you wind most of them up to 70mph with heat/AC you lose 40% of the range which is just unacceptable!

I was very interested in the Zoe before I sat in one - It's the right sort of size, but it turns out that impressive range figure tanks rather shockingly if you take it on the motorway. Also I don't hate my friends enough to put them in the back of one of those - The Mk4 is far worse than the Mk2 for driver and passenger comfort, but the Zoe is even worse! And the internal storage is a a disgrace - That car has to have the poorest excuse for a glovebox I have ever seen!

The Kona/Niro have been the closest things to what I'm after so far, but disappointingly we seem to be moving away from that and into short-ranged SUVs land barges - I was impressed how they got so much more range than everyone else for the Battery size, but as you know I hate SUVs and anyway it was just too big. And of course, now we know why they had such long ranges - No buffer! Now they are paying for it with one of most expensive recalls in automotive history!

Everything that's out currently is too big and doesn't have enough range - They literally have zero advantage for me over what I have, and have had, so why would I pay more money (*So* much more money!!) for something that is worse?

The sad fact is every EV currently on sale is worse in every way for what I need out of a car - Compared to the Mk4, they're more expensive, they have worse range, they are too big, they aren't significantly cheaper to run if I'm stuck with public charging (And if you factor in insurance and purchase cost they are much more expensive to run!)

 

But this is all expected - As I said we're only in EV's infancy; In fact, now that I think about it, when I had a diesel Yaris I said much the same thing about hybrids: I wanted one, but they were too big, worse range, more expensive, not significantly cheaper to run etc.  

It's only now, 20 years since Toyota made the first Prius, that they've finally improved the hybrid drive to the point that they could finally make a car that surpassed my little 1.4 D4D. 20 years!!

That is the whole problem at the moment - Development takes time; Current EVs are being rushed out, and that is why Toyota ave been doing their damnedest to put the brakes on - They feel the tech isn't ready, and I agree with them.

We do need early adopters to drive development, and there are enough people whose usecase will fit existing EVs, but I am not one of those people. I have no urge to jump on that wagon early, esp. with what I see with the current and near-mid future offerings. But I waited this long for a decent hybrid, so I can wait. Also it'll give me time to build back up the EV pot that I just blew on the Yaris  

 

[TonyHSD]

No argument here just personal thoughts and here is what I meant about the right car for your needs, for all of us would be different. I personally don’t need an ev, don’t need even a newer hybrid because they are not so much more advanced than what I currently drive, the difference between gen4 and gen 3 Toyota hybrids is a small step forward where the difference between gen 3 and previous generations is huge. Toyota only took them 10 years to make it right. My car 2010 model deliver it’s promise in terms of drivability, reliability and efficiency therefore I don’t see a need for change yet plus cost me nothing (no monthly payment) and it’s super cheap to maintain, if I buy a new Corolla for example would cost me a lot and it will be 5mpg more at its best, drive the same. , look similar just more modern with bluish lights 🤣👍, will replace my current Auris when become worn out to the point that is not economically to repair 👌.  For the electric cars, yes their range is limited, charging options limited and charging time is obviously greater than ice car refills. Yes they do loose some of its range with ac heating etc but not as much as most people think. , hybrids and all other type of cars also loose range in cold and harsh environment or if trasheD on the motorway.
Electric cars are already here, they are as good as ice or even better, more reliable, less trouble, nicer to drive, actually once you have adopted to Toyota hybrids driving experience, going into electric car world will be the smoothest transition because they drive exactly the same as Toyota hybrids in ev mode., something that I feel every time I step inside the Hyundai, same as my car quiet but something is missing, no ice to come to life , it’s all electric.

Moving to electric is a wise choice and good idea as long as it’s suitable for you  👍

[Stopeter44]

13 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Any ev that can do 120-140+ miles on one charge is suitable for most people as long as they have their own parking with charging facilities, or cheap way of charging it.

Yes, it's certainly enough for everyday use for most people. OTOH, temperatures and road conditions are variables, and with the Zoe and the e-208 the indications from the respective website, was they would barely manage 125 miles on a full charge for an essentially motorway run. I certainly don't want to be inconvenienced by a top up charge on such a short run.

 

13 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

It’s perhaps one of the best Evs at that price point of £30k with excellent warranty etc. Its the only ev that I have access currently but it does feel very well put together, very Toyota like product, it’s Hyundai ionic electric.

I don't want a car that big, nor that expensive. Plus when you delve into what's coming with Battery technology and the limitations of today's batteries, the time just isn't right. 

Then @Cyker said this below, I am 100% in agreement

11 hours ago, Cyker said:

The sad fact is every EV currently on sale is worse in every way for what I need out of a car - Compared to the Mk4, they're more expensive, they have worse range, they are too big, they aren't significantly cheaper to run if I'm stuck with public charging (And if you factor in insurance and purchase cost they are much more expensive to run!)

[TonyHSD]

5 minutes ago, Stopeter44 said:

Yes, it's certainly enough for everyday use for most people. OTOH, temperatures and road conditions are variables, and with the Zoe and the e-208 the indications from the respective website, was they would barely manage 125 miles on a full charge for an essentially motorway run. I certainly don't want to be inconvenienced by a top up charge on such a short run.

 

I don't want a car that big, nor that expensive. Plus when you delve into what's coming with battery technology and the limitations of today's batteries, the time just isn't right.

Electric cars similar to ice and hybrids are very different between the makes and models, different energy consumption etc, therefore a good research before purchasing would save future headaches with range, reliability, and general use. Toyota are late to the market but they are coming with a big promise: Battery health longevity and if that will be guaranteed on paper they will sell their range of Evs like a hot cakes. Don’t blame anyone who just bought a Toyota hybrid because these are one of the best choices currently and will remain like that until petrol is available at the pumps., plus most of the new Evs are on some sort of lease contract hires and will be returned even before their first service 🤣👌, whoever will be the second, third and every next owner will take the hit of the Battery life performance that comes with age. I see private cash owners prefer to put their money on hybrids more than ev as long term investment or as a tool for a future use. , I would probably do the same if I need to replace my car now, Corolla or Prius instead of ionic or Tesla. 

[Stopeter44]

41 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

plus most of the new Evs are on some sort of lease contract hires and will be returned even before their first service 🤣👌, whoever will be the second, third and every next owner will take the hit of the battery life performance that comes with age.

You can barely give away a 1st or 2nd generation Zoe, because, among other things, you still have to pay the Battery rental, or you have to buy the Battery which can cost between 2000€ and 8000€ !

[Anthony Poli]

On 12/13/2021 at 1:34 PM, Steve Whits said:

I moved to Lincolnshire a few months ago and am doing less driving now so have taken the leap to electric with a Kia E Niro 4. Just a shame that Toyota don't manufacture any yet and I think they have definitely missed an opportunity. I will take delivery on 5th January 🙂

I have also moved to electric, I got fed up of waiting for Toyota. After having a hybrid and enjoying the electric part of my drives, I wanted that all the time. The E10 con made up my mind, after the economy took a big hit.

[ATF1979]

I travelled to Scotland in the summer and stopped at a large services - there were a grand total of two EV charging points, one of which was out of order (which apparently is quite common) there was a queue for the one working charging point - I have no idea how long they had to wait.

Just around the corner was a travel lodge with 10 Tesla charging points, none of which were being used (because you can only charge Tesla's on them)

Many so called fast charging points are also not working as they should - has anyone seen the farce on the Guy Martin show when he tried to travel from his home in Yorkshire to Scotland?  he planned the route carefully only to repeatedly find charge points not working, fast charge points taking far longer than they should and every time he charged it cost £40+. He was in the brand new Hyundai EV that is getting rave reviews, but it gave nowhere near the range claimed for it.

I went into work recently, it was a cold and dark morning, so all cars had lights, stereo, heaters all on, the major junction Jct 1 on the M5 was completely gridlocked because a girl in a Renault Zoe had broken down in the middle of the island - presumably rang out of charge with so much electric devices on.

[TonyHSD]

Stories to tell about evs and how they sucks on long journeys which is true to some extent however we need to understand one thing, all accessories in the car except ac and heating are run by the small 12v Battery and these are not such a big enemy to the traction Battery so not a big deal. What actually cause the range to go down is the drug from wind, rain, heavy load, fast speeds over 65mph, under inflated tyres, pretty much all the same stuff as with Toyota hybrids. My gf ionic showed ranges of up to 205 miles in summer or over 5.2m/kw/h, now she says shows around 185miles , that’s nothing, the only thing changed for her is the weather (season).  Now about my auris hybrid ranges in the summer where over 500 milles 525 often seen from a full tank 42ltr. Now I am averaging around 425-445 miles which makes it a bigger difference than hers. What changed with me is obviously season but also I swapped the tyres with winter one and also I keep the car in ready mode for hours to have e power and heating., ice is running and this affects as well. Btw she uses all heating, heated seats , navigation, she also often turn the car remotely to heat up the cabin before she gets in and drive off and while the car is off charger.  Btw teslas are unlocking their chargers to other makes and this will help further evs to charge on the go, but again if you  are regular long miles driver evs are just not there for now and Toyota self charging hybrids are the best option. 👌✅🔋

[Anthony Poli]

11 minutes ago, ATF1979 said:

I travelled to Scotland in the summer and stopped at a large services - there were a grand total of two EV charging points, one of which was out of order (which apparently is quite common) there was a queue for the one working charging point - I have no idea how long they had to wait.

Just around the corner was a travel lodge with 10 Tesla charging points, none of which were being used (because you can only charge Tesla's on them)

Many so called fast charging points are also not working as they should - has anyone seen the farce on the Guy Martin show when he tried to travel from his home in Yorkshire to Scotland?  he planned the route carefully only to repeatedly find charge points not working, fast charge points taking far longer than they should and every time he charged it cost £40+. He was in the brand new Hyundai EV that is getting rave reviews, but it gave nowhere near the range claimed for it.

I went into work recently, it was a cold and dark morning, so all cars had lights, stereo, heaters all on, the major junction Jct 1 on the M5 was completely gridlocked because a girl in a Renault Zoe had broken down in the middle of the island - presumably rang out of charge with so much electric devices on.

Yes, things need to improve.

Hopefully the trial of Tesla allowing non Tesla owners using the super charger network is a positive one, should help as the network grows.

As for the cost, having driven nearly 600 miles, the most it's cost me per visit is £16. and taken 30 minutes.  

Some people run out of petrol, so probably the Zoe driver has the same mindset and was wanting to squeeze out the miles.

[Anthony Poli]

I bought the hybrids previously, not for being greener, but saving money. Still if I am burning less then it's greener.

I know one or 2 hybrid owner who complain about poor economy, but they still drive with lead feet. 

Going to an EV, I'm trying to drive economically and still keep up with traffic. 

[Saxmaniac]

It's worth holding off on evs unless you're sure it fits your usage, the rate of development is going to be fast over the next few years so with any luck they'll be practical for loads more people in a few years. If they manage to crack solid state batteries that could be a game changer

[Anthony Poli]

2 minutes ago, Saxmaniac said:

It's worth holding off on evs unless you're sure it fits your usage, the rate of development is going to be fast over the next few years so with any luck they'll be practical for loads more people in a few years. If they manage to crack solid state batteries that could be a game changer

Yes, not everyone will have the opportunity or practicality of going electric at the moment. Even after 2030 there will be second hand cars about.

I'm on the fence with solid state, just like the super capacitors. Not saying there is anything wrong with them, the problem they have to overcome, is the ability to mass manufacture and that has put some technologies on the back burners in the past. 

The best way to speed up new technology  development , weaponise it. Sadly that's how things go.

[Cyker]

Yeah, there's no benefit in being pressured into being an early adopter, esp. for something that isn't suitable. I know several people with Teslas and Outlander PHEVs which suits their usecases well (Usually live outside London and have a big driveway, and have families and dogs!  ), but the rest of us can afford to wait!

Also don't forget, unlike a lot of manufacturers who are having knee-jerk reactions, Toyota have been heavily investing into electric drive system R&D for decades, and they're not just looking into Battery tech but other energy alternatives too which is why they're currently fixated on hydrogen, but are also looking into capacitors and solid-electrolyte batteries.

I'm secretly hoping they are working on some top secret Mr Fusion Zero Point Energy Quantum Tachyon Antimatter Plasma Module project that holds a megawatt in something the size of a carry-on luggage  

Edit: You joke but I am slightly scared Trump will get voted in again and start a war with Russia, the EU or China...

[Anthony Poli]

1 minute ago, Cyker said:

Yeah, there's no benefit in being pressured into being an early adopter, esp. for something that isn't suitable. I know several people with Teslas and Outlander PHEVs which suits their usecases well (Usually live outside London and have a big driveway, and have families and dogs!  ), but the rest of us can afford to wait!

Also don't forget, unlike a lot of manufacturers who are having knee-***** reactions, Toyota have been heavily investing into electric drive system R&D for decades, and they're not just looking into battery tech but other energy alternatives too which is why they're currently fixated on hydrogen, but are also looking into capacitors and solid-electrolyte batteries.

I'm secretly hoping they are working on some top secret Mr Fusion Zero Point Energy Quantum Tachyon Antimatter Plasma Module project that holds a megawatt in something the size of a carry-on luggage  

 

Maybe you won't need roads where your going 🤣

[loz8]

Germans claim that combustion engines can be made that can run on alternative,renewable fuel.That's a spanner in the leccy works. E100 at the pumps?.

[Stopeter44]

20 minutes ago, loz8 said:

E100 at the pumps?.

It almost exists. E85 is quite widely available in France, and costs about 40% of E10. It is claimed that, while you need more fuel, it is more economical, the car runs the same. That is, after the car has a 1000€ modification, an addition to the electronics. In France Ford sells Flexifuel (E85 or E10) Foci and Pumas.

I have my doubts. Mostly because although it is claimed E85 comes from waste agricultural products, I don't believe that for a moment, I think that most of the E85 would come from maize or beet, or whatever grown especially to be turned into ethanol. It is true that some unsold wine gets turned into ethanol, but I just don't think that there's enough agricultural land available for food and for fuel!

Another argument in favour of E85, is that there's no net CO² production, because the CO² is effectively being continuously "cycled" by the plant to ethanol to spent fuel sequence.