Moving to Electric

[TonyHSD]

59 minutes ago, loz8 said:

Germans claim that combustion engines can be made that can run on alternative,renewable fuel.That's a spanner in the leccy works. E100 at the pumps?.

E85 widely used in Brazil 👍⛽️

[FROSTYBALLS]

29 minutes ago, Stopeter44 said:

It is true that some unsold wine gets turned into ethanol

Prince Charles had his Aston Martin DB6 Volante converted to run on bioethanol - made from surplus English white wine and whey from a cheese process.

 

[Yugguy1970]

Reading TGs review of a b4zx they say it has the yoke.

I dont get it.  Just because it's electric?  I still want to drive it like a normal car with some feel.

[Big_D]

1 hour ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

Prince Charles had his Aston Martin DB6 Volante converted to run on bioethanol - made from surplus English white wine and whey from a cheese process.

 

What a whey to go 😀. I bet he's not wine ing about it 😀

[Cyker]

You don't want E100 - Firstly, I doubt we could make enough of it to replace petrol without creating a food shortage, and secondly the mpg on pure ethanol is awful - Remember it only has 2/3 the energy of petrol, so e.g. my 70mpg Mk4 would be 45-46mpg!

I know people who converted their car to run on E85 (Mainly for track use - One good thing about high ethanol content is you can use higher compression and much more boost than you can with petrol!) and they had to install uprated fuel pumps and injectors because the stock ones couldn't keep up.

 

If diesel hadn't been so demonized that would have been a better path as you can make synthetic/bio diesel out of a lot more stuff, esp. waste products that would probably have been buried or poured down the drain anyway, and there's no loss of performance or economy. Theoretically, the diesel (And for that matter gas turbine) cycles can run on any combustible fluid fuel - The only thing preventing it in current designs is the injector and seal designs. (That's why old volvo diesels with their cruder injectors can run on chip oil or even filtered used engine oil!)

I'm actually surprised nobody seems to have looked at using the diesel cycle with hydrogen, as you could run some ridiculous compression ratios with it; The only downside is still NOx emissions, but with hydrogen not producing any soot you could get rid of the NOx with a 3-way catalyst like in petrols which would... then... get... stolen... okay maybe there are some downsides i didn't think about...

 

 

[TonyHSD]

9 minutes ago, Cyker said:

You don't want E100 - Firstly, I doubt we could make enough of it to replace petrol without creating a food shortage, and secondly the mpg on pure ethanol is awful - Remember it only has 2/3 the energy of petrol, so e.g. my 70mpg Mk4 would be 45-46mpg!

I know people who converted their car to run on E85 (Mainly for track use - One good thing about high ethanol content is you can use higher compression and much more boost than you can with petrol!) and they had to install uprated fuel pumps and injectors because the stock ones couldn't keep up.

 

If diesel hadn't been so demonized that would have been a better path as you can make synthetic/bio diesel out of a lot more stuff, esp. waste products that would probably have been buried or poured down the drain anyway, and there's no loss of performance or economy. Theoretically, the diesel (And for that matter gas turbine) cycles can run on any combustible fluid fuel - The only thing preventing it in current designs is the injector and seal designs. (That's why old volvo diesels with their cruder injectors can run on chip oil or even filtered used engine oil!)

I'm actually surprised nobody seems to have looked at using the diesel cycle with hydrogen, as you could run some ridiculous compression ratios with it; The only downside is still NOx emissions, but with hydrogen not producing any soot you could get rid of the NOx with a 3-way catalyst like in petrols which would... then... get... stolen... okay maybe there are some downsides i didn't think about...

 

 

I think jcb in England are working on that project and has ready prototype in test currently, if I am not wrong I believe I watched something about that exactly not long ago 👍

[Roy124]

4 hours ago, loz8 said:

Germans claim that combustion engines can be made that can run on alternative,renewable fuel.That's a spanner in the leccy works. E100 at the pumps?.

They did that 75 years ago. 

[Cyker]

I think JCB are using spark ignition, but could be wrong! Be interested to see what they come up with as they are the only people aside from Toyota who are putting some real R&D into hydrogen-powered piston engines.

This reminds me of that jag concept car powered by turbines... I wonder what happened to that??

[TonyHSD]

I think the electric cars boom will turn to be a scam same as pandemic, lockdowns ets and many more similar fiascos from governments all around the world are into it.  Why is that pushing towards electrification and chasing unrealistic co2 targets, eco bs but at the same time bombs and rockets are flying across Europe , tanks and heavy military machines blowing co2 and other pollutants like crazy, or perhaps they should use electric bombs and lasers instead. Everything is one big lie about Battery electric cars., plus they are only ok for short trips and they are too heavy and not efficient at all with few exceptions. Just watch carwow video about the Skoda, so unpractical when loaded. 🔋🙁🔌

[FROSTYBALLS]

JCB's hydrogen engine:

https://www.jcb.com/en-gb/campaigns/hydrogen

https://www.jcb.com/en-gb/news/2021/10/jcb-hydrogen-engine-gets-100m-injection

JCB also own Wrightbus (the manufacturer of the Boris bus) who have launched a hydrogen powered single decker.

Birmingham already have 20 Wrightbus hydrogen fuel cell powered double deckers, and are planning for a fleet of 200.

[TonyHSD]

I have seen hydrogen buses in London back in 2012-2015 around se1 area and itv building, they were single decker and longer ones similar to these in Germany, and they were making a strange futuristic noises while passing by. Don’t know if they still exist though, haven’t been there since. 

[Cyker]

That's interesting; All I see (And smell) still are diesel busses, and a fair number of diesel black cabs too  - Just highlights KHAAAN!'s hypocrisy all the more. You can bet they aren't being hit by the ULEZ charges everyone else is subjected to...

 

[AJones]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

That's interesting; All I see (And smell) still are diesel busses, and a fair number of diesel black cabs too  - Just highlights KHAAAN!'s hypocrisy all the more. You can bet they aren't being hit by the ULEZ charges everyone else is subjected to...

There's a 15 year age limit on London black cabs and since 2018 all new black cabs had to be low emission with a minimum 30 mile zero emission range, new diesel black cabs are not allowed. Seems a pretty reasonable approach, anything new needs to meet the latest standards and has done for the last 4 years, while the older cabs work their way through the system and get replaced.

[Cyker]

I don't think it's reasonable at all - Normal road users and private-hire taxies have all been forced to comply with the extension with absolutely no help and none of the extensions or reduced rates that the original ULEZ had. Public transport should be setting the example, but instead they are now the most polluting vehicles on the roads yet KHAAAAN! is still trying to screw us even more instead of sorting them out.

He's literally done nothing to improve the air quality in London - Just used it as an excuse to try and screw more money out of motorists - When that failed with the ULEZ extension, because we were able to spread the word about it (They didn't advertise it in advance AT ALL - The first signs didn't even appear until literally a week before it was due to come into operation!), he's now decided that despite everyone upgrading to cleaner cars to avoid the ULEZ fines, pollution is still too high so he wants to levy a £2 daily charge to drive in London.

Yet still diesel busses and taxis are allowed. And you know why? Because upgrading those would cost him money, whereas screwing us makes him money.

It's all just a money grab under the guise of 'saving the planet'. I bet him and the motorcade of giant diesel SUVs he uses to transport him and his staff around aren't paying those charges either.

 

[AJones]

You're blaming Khan as if the money is going to him, he isn't getting the money, its needed because we've had a COVID pandemic which has caused public transport passenger numbers and revenues to collapse. Government isn't willing to replace that missing income and fund the deficit, so London needs to either cut back or shut down parts of its public transport system or find extra ways to raise revenue.

So presumably if you don't like the new charges, you would prefer the alternative of cutting public transport and raising public transport ticket prices? (though that last part isn't very green).

[Cyker]

I blame KHAAAAN! because he is the one instigating all of these decisions.

It's all stick and no carrot. I'm sick of being punished for doing what they tell us to do - His party encouraged us do switch to diesels, we did, now he is penalizing us for it. He wanted us to switch to more environmentally friendly vehicles. We did. Now he's planning to punish us for it.

And it's all because he wants more money, and we're the easy target. I wouldn't mind if we got something out of it, but it's all take and no give. And then even more take.

Regarding the hole in their budget, frankly, the pandemic is just being used as an excuse - Even before he was struggling to balance the books and while the locksdowns made it even worse, at the end of the day the buck stops with him. The BBC, the NHS, and education have been continuously screwed for funding but they do what they can with what they have, and even have to devise alternate sources of income.

Maybe if he doesn't have the funds he should scale back all these expensive pet projects.

If fares have to go up, then they have to go up - London has some of the cheapest fares in the UK, and I can't help wondering if that's because it's being subsidised by all these charges they keep levying for motorists. If so, that's not sustainable and is why they are having such a budget problem; Fines should not be treated as a regular source of income.

But I don't get how things can be so bad - How can it be cheaper for me to run my own private vehicle than it is for me to use public transport? It should be the other way around, so how have they mismanaged the public transport network so badly? Where is all the fare money going??

[Broadway One]

19 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

JCB's hydrogen engine:

https://www.jcb.com/en-gb/campaigns/hydrogen

https://www.jcb.com/en-gb/news/2021/10/jcb-hydrogen-engine-gets-100m-injection

JCB also own Wrightbus (the manufacturer of the Boris bus) who have launched a hydrogen powered single decker.

Birmingham already have 20 Wrightbus hydrogen fuel cell powered double deckers, and are planning for a fleet of 200.

 

[Broadway One]

2 hours ago, Broadway One said:

JCB's hydrogen engine:

Hi all.....thanks for posting & a couple of great informative links.

British family company (JCB) now a global brand are to be applauded.

They produce 400 diesel engines a day, serious pressure imposed by UK green targets.

Their Battery powered 2 ton digger cost £37k v £18k for the diesel version; say no more.

As a result JCB are designing a hydrogen ICE from scratch, not redesigning an existing ICE. 

They are proposing to eventually use green liquid hydrogen fuel produced from renewables.

JCB are also actively setting up a major world network to carry Ammonia a shipping fuel used to safely transport hydrogen, further endorsement of a longer term vision. 

Well done JCB, well done Toyota for the pursuit of a true green EV alternative.

Barry Wright, Lancashire.    

[Anthony Poli]

On 2/25/2022 at 9:17 PM, TonyHSD said:

I think the electric cars boom will turn to be a scam same as pandemic, lockdowns ets and many more similar fiascos from governments all around the world are into it.  Why is that pushing towards electrification and chasing unrealistic co2 targets, eco bs but at the same time bombs and rockets are flying across Europe , tanks and heavy military machines blowing co2 and other pollutants like crazy, or perhaps they should use electric bombs and lasers instead. Everything is one big lie about battery electric cars., plus they are only ok for short trips and they are too heavy and not efficient at all with few exceptions. Just watch carwow video about the Skoda, so unpractical when loaded. 🔋🙁🔌

Electric cars aren't too heavy and ok for short trips, hybrids are just as heavy. If your heavy footed with an ICE car then you'll be just as bad with the electric one.

So where is the lie?

[Anthony Poli]

The problem with hydrogen is how it is produced, at the moment we haven't found a low energy way of making in bulk without the extra CO2. Then there is the storage and transportation and when used in a engine it still produces by products from the lubrication. 

[Cyker]

Yeah, the conversion efficiency is awful so it's quite wasteful from a purely energy efficiency point of view, but if that was the only concern we would be using diesel over petrol.

The major plus of hydrogen is practicality, as it retains the zero CO2 emission at use but has much higher energy density and is more portable, and I can imagine in some industries where that would work where batteries just aren't practical.

Personally I'm still hoping for more Battery breakthroughs - I only want a measly 300 miles of worst-case real world range in a small car! 

[Anthony Poli]

2 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Yeah, the conversion efficiency is awful so it's quite wasteful from a purely energy efficiency point of view, but if that was the only concern we would be using diesel over petrol.

The major plus of hydrogen is practicality, as it retains the zero CO2 emission at use but has much higher energy density and is more portable, and I can imagine in some industries where that would work where batteries just aren't practical.

Personally I'm still hoping for more battery breakthroughs - I only want a measly 300 miles of worst-case real world range in a small car! 

At the moment the hydrogen is produced from methane, hence the extra CO2. A better way is to use microbes that take in waste and release the hydrogen without the CO2.

 

[TonyHSD]

5 hours ago, Anthony Poli said:

Electric cars aren't too heavy and ok for short trips, hybrids are just as heavy. If your heavy footed with an ICE car then you'll be just as bad with the electric one.

So where is the lie?

The lie is in the same as it was with the diesels, efficiency-  they are indeed but only in certain situations like long motorway runs, driving in town as bad as petrol equivalent especially on those small cars 1.6 and below, second reliability, diesels since introduction of cleaner technology became nothing but trouble, evs are great for first 100k miles then after Battery or drivetrain replacement at cost sometimes higher than the car itself. The environment- evs are clean to drive but not so much to be produced and really difficult and expensive to recycle. The weight of bev is way too much because of the Battery and can not be compared to ice or hybrids. Ok they are great to drive and can serve excellent purpose but can not completely replace hybrid or ice in all vehicles sizes and therefore should not be pushed so hardly. , it is more important for the customer (owner) to make the right choice when purchasing its new car no matter of its electric or hybrid or diesel., that’s my point and that was the issue with the diesels. We have bev in the family and it’s a great car, actually it’s one of the most efficient evs and drives superb but can not fulfil my requirements, even Tesla with longest range currently available will not be, Toyota hybrid is brilliant. The ioniq serve its purpose nicely too and gf is happier than ever with some exceptions when she is no able to charge because she hasn’t got her own charger and uses  only public ones. Just my thoughts about evs and the future of all cars. 
The best electric vehicle currently is not even legally allowed on British roads although there are almost a million in use , it’s called Xiaomi electric scooter pro and here it is why: 

weight :14.5kg 

Can carry one person of up to 100kg but in reality up to 120kg 

range: 25miles 40km real world 

cost per full charge 30p 

Battery can last well over 500 full charge cycles 

purchase price around  £450

no tax no insurance no maintenance costs and that’s why most likely has been kept illegal, nothing for the government. 

[Stopeter44]

41 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

The best electric vehicle currently is not even legally allowed on British roads although there are almost a million in use , it’s called Xiaomi electric scooter pro and here it is why: 

weight :14.5kg 

Can carry one person of up to 100kg but in reality up to 120kg 

range: 25miles 40km real world 

cost per full charge 30p 

battery can last well over 500 full charge cycles 

purchase price around  £450

no tax no insurance no maintenance costs and that’s why most likely has been kept illegal, nothing for the government. 

For mobility, maybe. I think electric scooters are an absolute plague, a special place in hell for the person(s) who thought up those things. People dump them absolutely everywhere when they are in use as an urban mobility program, like in some cities (cf. Marseille), I would destroy every one of them if I could.

[TonyHSD]

4 minutes ago, Stopeter44 said:

For mobility, maybe. I think electric scooters are an absolute plague, a special place in hell for the person(s) who thought up those things. People dump them absolutely everywhere when they are in use as an urban mobility program, like in some cities (cf. Mubikille), I would destroy every one of them if I could.

These are different, they are rental and abused. They are toxic indeed but private ones are ultimate mobility transport. 🛴😊