Moving to Electric

[Anthony Poli]

45 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

The lie is in the same as it was with the diesels, efficiency-  they are indeed but only in certain situations like long motorway runs, driving in town as bad as petrol equivalent especially on those small cars 1.6 and below, second reliability, diesels since introduction of cleaner technology became nothing but trouble, evs are great for first 100k miles then after battery or drivetrain replacement at cost sometimes higher than the car itself. The environment- evs are clean to drive but not so much to be produced and really difficult and expensive to recycle. The weight of bev is way too much because of the battery and can not be compared to ice or hybrids. Ok they are great to drive and can serve excellent purpose but can not completely replace hybrid or ice in all vehicles sizes and therefore should not be pushed so hardly. , it is more important for the customer (owner) to make the right choice when purchasing its new car no matter of its electric or hybrid or diesel., that’s my point and that was the issue with the diesels. We have bev in the family and it’s a great car, actually it’s one of the most efficient evs and drives superb but can not fulfil my requirements, even Tesla with longest range currently available will not be, Toyota hybrid is brilliant. The ioniq serve its purpose nicely too and gf is happier than ever with some exceptions when she is no able to charge because she hasn’t got her own charger and uses  only public ones. Just my thoughts about evs and the future of all cars. 
The best electric vehicle currently is not even legally allowed on British roads although there are almost a million in use , it’s called Xiaomi electric scooter pro and here it is why: 

weight :14.5kg 

Can carry one person of up to 100kg but in reality up to 120kg 

range: 25miles 40km real world 

cost per full charge 30p 

battery can last well over 500 full charge cycles 

purchase price around  £450

no tax no insurance no maintenance costs and that’s why most likely has been kept illegal, nothing for the government. 

Sadly you haven't shown any sources for the misinformation.

Auris hybrid TS weight around 1400 -1600 Kg, Model 3 RWD 1800-1880 Kg

Where do you get this 100K miles from?

There are still the original Leafs still motoring from 2011, with original drivetrain and have only lost 33% of range in that time.

The hybrid system was meant to be a stop gap, but never lived up to the advertised figures for most people.

As for you Gf, that situation is improving as  chargers are appearing, going back to when I was a kid, you carried a can of petrol just for  emergency. Now there are plenty of places to buy fuel.

 

 

[TonyHSD]

29 minutes ago, Anthony Poli said:

Sadly you haven't shown any sources for the misinformation.

Auris hybrid TS weight around 1400 -1600 Kg, Model 3 RWD 1800-1880 Kg

Where do you get this 100K miles from?

There are still the original Leafs still motoring from 2011, with original drivetrain and have only lost 33% of range in that time.

The hybrid system was meant to be a stop gap, but never lived up to the advertised figures for most people.

As for you Gf, that situation is improving as  chargers are appearing, going back to when I was a kid, you carried a can of petrol just for  emergency. Now there are plenty of places to buy fuel.

 

 

My opinion shared, that’s all.  👍

[Anthony Poli]

2 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

My opinion shared, that’s all.  👍

I hope no offence was taken by my reply.

I know EV's won't suit everyone at the moment, because of range, availability of chargers and most importantly price. This will change as the demand for EV's is increasing, even if some car manufacturers are trying to dig their heals in.

Just my opinion 🙂  

[TonyHSD]

20 minutes ago, Anthony Poli said:

I hope no offence was taken by my reply.

I know EV's won't suit everyone at the moment, because of range, availability of chargers and most importantly price. This will change as the demand for EV's is increasing, even if some car manufacturers are trying to dig their heals in.

Just my opinion 🙂  

No offence of course.👌 We are only sharing our opinions. Evs are the next step forward but bev as we know it now might not be, that’s my point. The batteries are the issue and their weight (volume) to power and range ratio. Here I like to share one video if anyone hasn’t seen yet it is good and better explanation of my concerns along with Battery manufacturing and recycling. 

About the longevity of the bev now , they are definitely more reliable than ice or many hybrids but after a certain mileage  100-150k for example a major repair might be needed and this out of warranty cost is huge commitment and it will scare many used car potential buyers., it will also push used ice and hybrid prices even further up. I read an example of Tesla model S live at 600k miles but with 2 batteries change and one drive train. 

[Anthony Poli]

Before I put my money on my horse, I did look into how things were going as whole. 

My GF has a Aygo and was worried about how I was going to fair, now she has seen how it goes and pro's and and cons. She said if she was in a position to buy a car it would be electric.

 

[AJones]

6 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

About the longevity of the bev now , they are definitely more reliable than ice or many hybrids but after a certain mileage  100-150k for example a major repair might be needed and this out of warranty cost is huge commitment and it will scare many used car potential buyers., it will also push used ice and hybrid prices even further up. I read an example of Tesla model S live at 600k miles but with 2 batteries change and one drive train. 

What happens if you need a major repair on a hybrid after 100k miles, if the Battery, one of motors or the power converter fails? It's outside of warranty and a huge cost. Are used car buyers scared of buying hybrids?

[Cyker]

The traction Battery for my Mk4 costs about the same as getting the clutch changed in my  old Mk1 D4D, and a lot less than getting the AC system of my Mk2 repaired, at my local dealer  

 

[TonyHSD]

9 hours ago, AJones said:

What happens if you need a major repair on a hybrid after 100k miles, if the battery, one of motors or the power converter fails? It's outside of warranty and a huge cost. Are used car buyers scared of buying hybrids?

Well used hybrids new owners were scared and many still are indeed, even here a lots people ask exactly about that. Here is the deal, Toyota hybrids batteries are not as complicated as bev neither so big or too expensive plus Toyota name is also kind of label for peace of mind. Hybrid batteries can be repaired by an average diy mechanic, there are also plenty of parts available, and also the batteries last well pass these mileage, there are many Priuses with over 300k miles on its original batteries. Drive trains again widely available second hand parts and not too complicated mechanically to swap, where on bev it’s slightly different. And yes indeed with the time being we will catch up and bev eventually will dominate the market but my point is again there are enough reasons to believe that if governments decide that these are not efficient and not ecologically clean to dominate similar to what happens to diesels the bev will get banned and all that may happen even before the ban of ice. , all we need is another power alternative and we will see. I am not against BEV’s at all, I like them a lot 🔌😉👌

[TonyHSD]

That boy simply nailed it. What applies for his leaf actually applies to all evs just multiply the Battery kw/h ✌️🔋🔌

 

[Cyker]

My requirement hasn't changed - 300+ miles at 70mph in something less than 4m long and ~1.6m wide.

The Leaf is a pretty poor example of an EV tho' - 60 miles is a joke; Makes it only suitable for rich people who can afford multiple cars, or people who may as well be using public transport.

Right now it still only makes sense if it has enough range for the vast majority of your journeys and you can get free charging at work, or if you can charge at home (Although with the domestic electric price hikes coming, charging at home will be as expensive as a lot of public chargers!!)

If it wasn't for petrol rocketing up my Mk4 would be cheaper to run than most EVs, but now I think EV's have taken the lead again  

[TonyHSD]

To summarise your real range you have to take into account the following: wherever you go plus return journey and all that to be covered while Battery remains within the window of 80% to 20% 🔋, otherwise you will be meeting the reality of bev these days:  lack of public chargers, nasty car drivers who park on ev bays, range anxiety and wasted time looking for charger instead of doing something better. Seriously evs are not capable of long journeys and will never be., unless fuel cell or similar that power can be created on demand and fuel is widely available,  any extra energy eventually stored into a small Battery similar to the ones in hybrids. 

[Anthony Poli]

9 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

That boy simply nailed it. What applies for his leaf actually applies to all evs just multiply the battery kw/h ✌️🔋🔌

 

A 11 year old car, just like a petrol car. Won't do the same MPG after the same age and distance.

This was the first mass produced EV, so the range was low to start with. So your comparing it to newer or new EV's.

Now when you decided to buy a hybrid, what was your mindset?

I bought my hybrids, with the intention of having the benefits of driving on electric and the regen. Knowing full well it was a way of dipping my toe into EV's, while not having to worry about charging. It was always my intention to go full electric, so the hybrid was a stepping stone.

 

[Anthony Poli]

I know some well never accept EV's for all the excuses already stated.

The only real true point is the current number of chargers,  I don't have a charging point at home and it's not a problem, but I'm not loosing/wasting time going to charge. Still yet to find a non working charger.

[Saxmaniac]

Just a couple of small points. In the last few days it's been stated in press that Bevs are proving less reliable than petrol or diesel, more due to tech rather than mechanical problems and much harder and longer off the road. Full hybrids were the most reliable type of all vehicles. A documentary attempted to analyse full life CO2 production including electricity generation (can't remember what percent renewable) and manufacturing, Battery manufacturing and rare metal mining for bev vs fossil fuel, conclusion was Bev saved 25% CO2 emissions, so not as carbon free as you might think. Battery development is going on at a fast pace so a few more years might make Bevs more practical. I'd like to see something with a very long design life and possible to repair economically, this of course is the opposite of most modern manufactured goods, so my next vehicle will be a horse and cart

[TonyHSD]

5 hours ago, Anthony Poli said:

A 11 year old car, just like a petrol car. Won't do the same MPG after the same age and distance.

This was the first mass produced EV, so the range was low to start with. So your comparing it to newer or new EV's.

Now when you decided to buy a hybrid, what was your mindset?

I bought my hybrids, with the intention of having the benefits of driving on electric and the regen. Knowing full well it was a way of dipping my toe into EV's, while not having to worry about charging. It was always my intention to go full electric, so the hybrid was a stepping stone.

 

Hi Anthony,

I like electric cars a lot 🚙❤️👍 because they drives the best of all and very similar to Toyota hybrids.
When I decided to buy my own hybrid I had them experienced already and I was converted. I bought it firstly because of the way it drives, secondly for reliability, thirdly for its efficiency and the ecological part just comes as standard. 
For comparison with Nissan Leaf my Auris hybrid drives and feels exactly the same as when was brand new 11 years ago, efficiency is unchanged, performance too and I will continue to use it and see how far I can really go before a major component fail ( Battery, inverter, transmission, engine). I am also servicing the car myself and monitoring closely everything that happens and how the car ages, drivability, fuel consumption, service required., all documented with invoices and pictures also shared here on the forum. 

My concerns about bev are shown and explained by the videos above. Yes these cars are absolutely fine for many people who doesn’t drive a lot, does drive mostly in town or neighbouring counties, and ideally have a plug at home. Charging your bev once a week ( anywhere, home or out) it’s not a problem but more often than that it is and with the time being you will get more and more fed up with all that hassle. If you are a retired person or working from home and need your car occasionally bev probably it’s a good choice, but for many people who are travelling a lot for business or pleasure these are tiring responsibilities. The myth that you will stop at services to have a break a cup of hot drink while your car is charging is very different from reality. You have not experienced any issues yet because two possible reasons, you are not driving often and long enough and the second is that you have picked the best ev with best charging network.
I can give many examples of how inconvenient are bev indeed when they are put to work as they should or as all other can. Toyota hybrids beats them all in terms of driving experience, reliability, efficiency and general usability and I believe that they are as clean as full Evs after a lifecycle of the car, start from manufacturing, ownership and then recycling. 

[Anthony Poli]

12 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Hi Anthony,

I like electric cars a lot 🚙❤️👍 because they drives the best of all and very similar to Toyota hybrids.
When I decided to buy my own hybrid I had them experienced already and I was converted. I bought it firstly because of the way it drives, secondly for reliability, thirdly for its efficiency and the ecological part just comes as standard. 
For comparison with Nissan Leaf my Auris hybrid drives and feels exactly the same as when was brand new 11 years ago, efficiency is unchanged, performance too and I will continue to use it and see how far I can really go before a major component fail ( battery, inverter, transmission, engine). I am also servicing the car myself and monitoring closely everything that happens and how the car ages, drivability, fuel consumption, service required., all documented with invoices and pictures also shared here on the forum. 

My concerns about bev are shown and explained by the videos above. Yes these cars are absolutely fine for many people who doesn’t drive a lot, does drive mostly in town or neighbouring counties, and ideally have a plug at home. Charging your bev once a week ( anywhere, home or out) it’s not a problem but more often than that it is and with the time being you will get more and more fed up with all that hassle. If you are a retired person or working from home and need your car occasionally bev probably it’s a good choice, but for many people who are travelling a lot for business or pleasure these are tiring responsibilities. The myth that you will stop at services to have a break a cup of hot drink while your car is charging is very different from reality. You have not experienced any issues yet because two possible reasons, you are not driving often and long enough and the second is that you have picked the best ev with best charging network.
I can give many examples of how inconvenient are bev indeed when they are put to work as they should or as all other can. Toyota hybrids beats them all in terms of driving experience, reliability, efficiency and general usability and I believe that they are as clean as full Evs after a lifecycle of the car, start from manufacturing, ownership and then recycling. 

Sadly my Auris TS, did show a significant reduction in range. Plus the possibility of further increases in Ethanol content, helped me  to make the change. 

As I mentioned before, the hybrids just helped me to choose to go full electric. Toyota just didn't have what I was after, which  was a shame.

One area that Toyota needs to improve on for their cars, is the seats. Out of the 3 hybrids, the Yaris had better seats than the Auris. In both Auris models, I felt like someone with a disability after an hours driving. 

[TonyHSD]

58 minutes ago, Anthony Poli said:

Sadly my Auris TS, did show a significant reduction in range. Plus the possibility of further increases in Ethanol content, helped me  to make the change. 

As I mentioned before, the hybrids just helped me to choose to go full electric. Toyota just didn't have what I was after, which  was a shame.

One area that Toyota needs to improve on for their cars, is the seats. Out of the 3 hybrids, the Yaris had better seats than the Auris. In both Auris models, I felt like someone with a disability after an hours driving. 

You have made the right choice for yourself with model 3 👌 I was thinking to buy the same car back in 2019 and I am happy I did not do it. For me personally there is no better car then Toyota hybrid, we had two same Auris and the gf decided to make the step forward and switch to electric. Her major factors were central London work commuting, car maintenance when I am not around plus the deal she had was unbeatable (work scheme), so she went for it and she is happy like you are but with small exceptions about charging and reality about using public chargers. ⚡️🔌👍

[Cyker]

Yeah, at the end of the day all the different systems have their strengths and weaknesses and it all depends on individual use-cases. I mean, even diesel has it's own niche (albeit a very big niche!) which I can't see how we'll replace it with zero-emission alternatives without crippling compromises.

If I had free choice I'd still be driving my manual Mk1 diesel Yaris as that was perfectly suited to my use case!  (Cheap to buy, cheap to run, fun to drive, was already old and battered so I wasn't so precious about it like I am with the Mk4  )

I like the idea of an EV, as electric motors are awesome, but it all hinges on how they can get the energy to the motor, be it a Battery or some other method.

TBH I think the biggest mistake is the knee-jerk reaction - You'd think they'd learn after the diesel fiasco; They should let people choose between the different systems on their own merits instead. Definitely needs to be more carrot and less stick.

The really ironic thing is, switching everyone to an EV will create far more emissions and energy use than just sticking with what we have - It will take probably a decade for them to offset the emissions of production alone!

 

[Cyker]

13 hours ago, Saxmaniac said:

In the last few days it's been stated in press that Bevs are proving less reliable than petrol or diesel, more due to tech rather than mechanical problems

This is the thing that worries me about newer cars - We're now coming into an era where cars are so dependent on software that I get paranoid the software is the thing that is most likely to crash (And then cause the car to literally crash  )

It doesn't help that modern programming techniques have changed from thorough testing to rapid prototyping and 'agile' techniques (Which I suspect is why modern software is so unbelievably buggy - Almost every major program and game seems to require a day-one patch to fix critical bugs on the day it's released!).

 

[Big_D]

You are correct. Cars are too dependent on software. If I remember correctly, the C-HR has something like 53 "computers" onboard. These control everything and are totally reliant on software.

 

Take your car to the dealer, and one of the first things they do is to plug in a PC to see what the problem is. 

[AJones]

EVs are just like any technology, the early versions have some benefits but aren't as good as the existing technology in all areas or features, but over time it gets steadily better, steadily lower cost and more affordable until it reaches the point where it pushes out the old technology almost completely.

EVs are still working their way along that path, the expensive top-end EVs are already better than hybrids and conventional cars, but the more mass market EVs are still a bit of a compromise, the costs are too high or the range could be better but costs are falling and range improving, but still have some way to go until the balance tips squarely in their favour for all buyers. Small, affordable EVs are still a challenge.

At the moment we're in the early to middle stage, EVs are here, the top-end ones are clearly better but in other segments the price/performance is more finely balanced and so there's still that question of whether an EV makes sense yet to a buyer, or whether it's better to stick with a hybrid or a conventional engine.

Reminds me of the shift from CRT televisions to flatscreens, or from film cameras to digital cameras, exactly the same thing played out, the first versions were either poorer quality or very expensive and it took some years for the technology to reach the point where it took over the market and pushed out the old, but it got there.

 

 

[Cyker]

Yeah, very true - Ugh I still remember those old passive matrix colour LCDs with their awful viewing angles and slow ghost refresh rates! When you compare those to current gen IPS and OLED displays you really do see how much they've advanced.

My personal opinion is hybrids have only just matured to the point where they now offer a superior driving experience and are genuinely more efficient than equivalent diesels... but it's been 20 years, and I really don't want to wait another 20 years for EV's to stop sucking!

Let's hope they can squeeze that advancement into 8 years, but I suspect I'll be hanging onto this Mk4 for a looong time!

 

[TonyHSD]

ICE cars were stuck in time for over 100 years until hybrids were born, even with technology advances there are some physical limitations and so will be the case with electric cars. The problem with Evs is only one, the batteries as a source of power, and perhaps charging.
Toyota has seen that many years ago and this is one reason why they never stopped pushing alternative fuel technology ahead together with perfecting their hybrids. 
Evs are easy made, an efficient Evs are not. Now Toyota been pushed by governments and the market shares they had no option but to offer a wide range off electric cars which no doubt will be as good as the best in class (Tesla). The truth is that an ev to be equivalent to a hybrid as convenience, usability, price, and general utility it has to have a Battery that is light weight, can provide a good range on full charge 300+ miles no matter what conditions are, can last well over 10 years and remain Battery health over 70%, and the cost of Battery replacement to be no more than £3000 current money, let say the price of a new clutch on “modern vehicle”. Also at the end of its life cycle the recycling cost of a bev has to match the recycling cost of an ice or hybrid vehicle. Until then Evs will lack all that mentioned above and they will add almost nothing to the environment and help keeping it in good condition. Evs currently only help for better air quality in big cities which is indeed a great thing and a huge step forward. Seen more and more Evs is a positive sign, but seen more and more Toyota hybrids over diesels and standard petrol cars is the best sign that people has awakened and left the dirty and unreliable old tech ice cars. ⚡️🔋🔌

[Big_D]

Electric cars have been around longer than we think

In 1898, Ferdinand Porsche designed the Egger-Lohner C.2 Phaeton. The vehicle was powered by an octagonal electric motor, and with three to five PS it reached a top speed of 25 km/h. In 1899, Porsche joined the carriage maker in Vienna, k.u.k. Hofwagenfabrik Ludwig Lohner & Co.

Copied from this page

https://newsroom.porsche.com/en/products/taycan/history-18563.html

[Anthony Poli]

On 3/11/2022 at 10:16 PM, Cyker said:

This is the thing that worries me about newer cars - We're now coming into an era where cars are so dependent on software that I get paranoid the software is the thing that is most likely to crash (And then cause the car to literally crash  )

It doesn't help that modern programming techniques have changed from thorough testing to rapid prototyping and 'agile' techniques (Which I suspect is why modern software is so unbelievably buggy - Almost every major program and game seems to require a day-one patch to fix critical bugs on the day it's released!).

 

Could be worse and they all run on windows 🤣