Quote from Autocar online

[Flatcoat]

“The rugged RAV4 is virtually identical to the Suzuki Across, but a wider range of trim levels makes the entry-level models more affordable. Like its twin, this Toyota offers an assured and easy-going driving experience that makes it a likeable large family wagon, plus it benefits from the same 46.6-mile range that delivers a 7% BIK rate, plus a punchy 302bhp power output that demolishes the sprint to 62mph in 6.0sec. It struggles to match premium rivals for showroom appeal, but get past the Badge snobbery and you’ll find an exceptionally good PHEV SUV.”

[duncerduncs]

Badge snobberists (I may have made up a new word!) still exist I'm afraid, most of them seem to work in the car magazines ironically....

It's easy to cough at the £42-46k price but just have a look at something like the 3008 PHEV or Tiguan PHEV that have less power, less range, higher BiK and come in at a similar price (spec for spec)!  The only thing that Stellantis have done is provide a 2WD PHEV in the Grandland/3008/C5 models which does lower the entry price point - certainly something Toyota could think about!

[IanML]

The spec for spec bit does not include MTBF.  You can't equate Peugeot reliability with Toyota.  Just compare the tales of woe on the Peugeot Forums with this site. The Peugeots are only half-developed, and need frequent software fixes.  Plus the hardware replacements under warranty....

[Lawnmowerman]

21 hours ago, IanML said:

The spec for spec bit does not include MTBF.  You can't equate Peugeot reliability with Toyota.  Just compare the tales of woe on the Peugeot Forums with this site. The Peugeots are only half-developed, and need frequent software fixes.  Plus the hardware replacements under warranty....

Had to look that up - does that mean 'Mean time between failures'?

If so, what manufacturer or indeed any source provides that information? 

 

[ColinB]

50 minutes ago, Lawnmowerman said:

Had to look that up - does that mean 'Mean time between failures'?

If so, what manufacturer or indeed any source provides that information? 

 

What Car publishes a reliability index every year and Toyota normally do well, this year No 3 against Peugeot at 16,which to be fair isn't too shabby. 

[IanML]

Yes, but it's a ranking - it doesn't tell you how "rank" no.16 is.  And that's my point.  If you compare spec for spec without taking into account reliability, you end up with misery.

[Nick72]

On 12/21/2021 at 1:17 PM, duncerduncs said:

Badge snobberists (I may have made up a new word!) still exist I'm afraid, most of them seem to work in the car magazines ironically....

It's easy to cough at the £42-46k price but just have a look at something like the 3008 PHEV or Tiguan PHEV that have less power, less range, higher BiK and come in at a similar price (spec for spec)!  The only thing that Stellantis have done is provide a 2WD PHEV in the Grandland/3008/C5 models which does lower the entry price point - certainly something Toyota could think about!

3008 PHEV hybrid4 300 GT has similar power. Used to have one. Actually very slightly faster 0 to 62mph and a better electric power distribution with 120hp at the rear and similar at the front, plus ICE power. Much better sprint 0 to 62 in the wet. Much better.

Interior a league above the RAV4 prime. Icockpit superb. Integrated tomtom 3D was so good I stopped using waze and Google maps. And the front passenger seat folded completely flat which was excellent for transporting long items or when you just needed a table for your takeout whilst travelling. 

 

But..  and here's the but... 

The car was riddled with poor engineering design and reliability issues. Everything from leaking, unfixable pan roof, to EV mode unavailability, and Battery range never got close to the claim, was highly sensitive to speed and temperature and thus most of the time on a good day when it worked I'd get 20 to 30 miles. When it was not working well (a mystery) it gave 8 to 12 miles on a charge which made it more expensive than using a petrol equivalent. The drive train was unsophisticated. Jolts from the gear box, and a big jolt going from electric to ICE. Very rough. 

Also a couple of serious safety issues involved in my experience. That car spent more time in the dealers than every single car I've ever owned put together including all servicing. And times 5. Many months in fact.

 

If it had lived up to the specification and been reliable it could have been a great car. Gave it back to Peugeot in the end. It was carbage. Then got a R4P dynamic Premium.  Solid as a car. Toyota reliability was much needed. Some strange counter intuitive elements to it (that's just Japanese, but on thinking about it they've actually done what I'd have done) but a solid reliable drivers car. Most solid car I've owned in 30 odd years of driving. Even more than my past new Mercs. And such a superb drive train albeit I'd liked to have had more power delivered to the rear wheels. 54mpg, 56 mile e-range (late summer), circa 42 mile range at present (winter). Also looks great on the outside. 

Downside has been that some of the tech is, well, like something out of the 1980s. Interior is a bit drab and it looks like a different committee has been in charge of different buttons in the cockpit. But these are minor issues in the grand scheme. Looking forward to Toyota's EV SUVs. It'll be one of those in 2.5 years time or a Rivian or Merc EV SUV. Volvo XC60 EV also possible. 

 

[Lawnmowerman]

I think the last good Peugeot was the 504. Interesting to read how poor they are at the moment in this segment. About 35 (ish) years ago our sales team were forbidden from taking Peugeots in p/ex as none could even pass their first MOT (corroded brake pipes) and older cars burnt oil at an alarming rate.

Although have to say the very latest SUV's are quite handsome (imo) particularly the front light treatment of the DRL's.

[Nick72]

58 minutes ago, Lawnmowerman said:

I think the last good Peugeot was the 504. Interesting to read how poor they are at the moment in this segment. About 35 (ish) years ago our sales team were forbidden from taking Peugeots in p/ex as none could even pass their first MOT (corroded brake pipes) and older cars burnt oil at an alarming rate.

Although have to say the very latest SUV's are quite handsome (imo) particularly the front light treatment of the DRL's.

Indeed. Aesthetics were great. Some great, worked well features too. But the bits that are core to a car or other important features were diabolically bad.

[Cyker]

That is really the modus operandi of Toyota - They tend to be on the trailing edge of stuff, only using things that are tried and true, learning from their mistakes and common problems, and prefer to evolve and iterate rather than innovate. Any time they try something new is always a surprise because they do it so rarely!

It's why they've been trying to hold off on BEV's as long as possible.

It's also why I tend to avoid e.g. french cars as they are the complete opposite - They love to constantly re-invent the wheel, and while French cars often have cool and innovative stuff it always feels pre-production and often doesn't survive into the next car, where they think of something else to do. Also their electrics are garbage  

But they definitely have the edge in design and interior comfort, and have a knack for building small cars that seems to be a dying skill with other manufacturers, who all seem to be drifting to full-fat American!

 

[Puglet]

We have a Peugeot 107 and Peugeot 108, both with the Toyota engines, when we got our 107 new 13 years ago seeing all those Toyota stickers on the oily bits was reassuring and when I investigated and saw the Peugeot/Citroen/Toyota tie up I was more reassured. To be fair get the point about certain bits being 'old skool' which being honest the first gen Aygo/107/C1 was definately that compared to the other city cars we test drove, but for us, well my Mum, it was her car and she was more comfortable with the less is more approach. I for one was happy for Toyota to do the mechanicals and Peugeot/Citroen the styling! on our car. That's why we got the 108, purely on styling over the Aygo and C1, as the 107 had been so good and it had to have the Toyota engine, the PSA 1.2 was never an option! 

It's horses for courses, cos we also had few Motorcaravans over the years many being Peugeot Boxer based with big diesel engines and they were spot on, never had any issues with the van mechanicals at all, the British built coach built parts, well that's another story!

[Lawnmowerman]

Yup, got to agree the French were a bit flaky. I had a spell as After-sales Manager with a Renault franchise (1 year - that was more than enough!). The Megane had been introduced for about a year. There were no manuals - all on CD for the ruggedised workshop laptop. There was only one CD in Edinburgh (at the importers dealership) and we had to borrow it when required. After 1 year it was still in Beta version!! We were on the coast and exhausts were breaking at 15 months, similarly with dampers and brake discs - c'est la vie 🤪.

[Stopeter44]

The original Megane, or the Megane 2 ? The Megane 2 had the dubious honour of being one of the most stolen cars in France. Why ? Because the reliability was poor. That said, some friends ran a Megane 2 until it blew up! They replaced it with an Auris hybrid.

[IanML]

Why would a thief choose to steal a car renown for poor reliability?  A lighter sentence ?

[Yugguy1970]

The 2.0t rs megane is one of the cars. I never had but really wanted.  That and a battleship gray saab 900.

These days though I'm happy to get in the Rav and it just feels like it will work and not let me down.

[Stopeter44]

1 hour ago, IanML said:

Why would a thief choose to steal a car renown for poor reliability?  A lighter sentence ?

To tear it down and sell the pieces for spares, this happened to a friend’s Clio 2.

[IanML]

Ah, so.

[Lawnmowerman]

18 hours ago, Stopeter44 said:

The original Megane, or the Megane 2 ? The Megane 2 had the dubious honour of being one of the most stolen cars in France. Why ? Because the reliability was poor. That said, some friends ran a Megane 2 until it blew up! They replaced it with an Auris hybrid.

Mk1 - just checked my diaries and it was worse than I thought. It had been in production for 4 years and still a Beta CD.

You couldn't make it up.

[Stopeter44]

That’s going back a bit! I rented one of those for a Loire valley wine run, we made it there and back just fine. The one I truly hated was the 1st generation Scenic.

[Lawnmowerman]

8 hours ago, Stopeter44 said:

That’s going back a bit! I rented one of those for a Loire valley wine run, we made it there and back just fine. The one I truly hated was the 1st generation Scenic.

Definitely wasn't a looker but I had one for a little while when my Avantime was out on demo. Found it very practical for picnics.

[Stopeter44]

Just now, Lawnmowerman said:

Definitely wasn't a looker but I had one for a little while when my Avantime was out on demo. Found it very practical for picnics.

Practical, maybe, but I really didn't like the way it drove, but, then, I never had kids. The rear seats were uncomfortable for adults. The Scenic II was much better, IMO, to drive.

[LynxE]

On 12/23/2021 at 3:27 PM, Nick72 said:

But..  and here's the but... 

The car was riddled with poor engineering design and reliability issues. Everything from leaking, unfixable pan roof, to EV mode unavailability, and battery range never got close to the claim, was highly sensitive to speed and temperature and thus most of the time on a good day when it worked I'd get 20 to 30 miles. When it was not working well (a mystery) it gave 8 to 12 miles on a charge which made it more expensive than using a petrol equivalent. The drive train was unsophisticated. Jolts from the gear box, and a big jolt going from electric to ICE. Very rough. 

Also a couple of serious safety issues involved in my experience. That car spent more time in the dealers than every single car I've ever owned put together including all servicing. And times 5. Many months in fact.

As an owner of EV Peugeot e-2008, I can say that everything is true. The iCockpit glass coating is peeling off - that happens with every 208-2008 Peugeot and they swap dashboards under warranty, but as the shortage of everything, I'm waiting four months and can't say when they replace it. Then, faulty braking system (the electric pump that makes pressure for a car in EV mode broke down) and a number of other issues. So, stay away from this garbage.

[Stopeter44]

I think I dodged a bullet, I had a 208 from 2016, it was very nice in many ways. I had no problems with the interior, but had to replace shock absorbers and brakes at 60k km. I test drove the e-208, but didn't like it. So I am happy with my choice of the Yaris Hybrid.

[Nick72]

On 12/27/2021 at 10:38 AM, LynxE said:

As an owner of EV Peugeot e-2008, I can say that everything is true. The iCockpit glass coating is peeling off - that happens with every 208-2008 Peugeot and they swap dashboards under warranty, but as the shortage of everything, I'm waiting four months and can't say when they replace it. Then, faulty braking system (the electric pump that makes pressure for a car in EV mode broke down) and a number of other issues. So, stay away from this garbage.

Yep. Complete and utter carbage. 

I'm sticking to Toyota and the big German brands from now on. May be tempted by Kia and Rivian in the future.