Auris 2008 long crank and doesn't run right, but no codes!

[Samuli]

Hi guys!

Thank you for any help, if you have any ideas on what might be up with my Auris all replies much appreciated !

Car: Auris 1.6, 2008, petrol (engine 1ZR-FE). Driven 130 000 mi. Had it for two years. Service history is good.

Issues:
-Long crank, about 10 seconds. Sometimes starts right up but sounds like just barely ignites. If it starts well on the first, and if I turn the engine off and try to start again, the second crank is usually much harder. 
-Idle's not vibrating but fluctuates between 300-1200 rpm. Stopping at a red light, does this couple of times before settling at about 800. Gets much better if I turn off AC, radio and other electronics.
-Sometimes hesitation at acceleration, a rare misfire here and there, and clear power loss.
-Still the car kind of runs fine once it starts. For the most part if it were not for the power loss, you could easily drive it and think it's fine.

Details:
-No check engine light, no pending codes.
-Oil has clear petrol smell already. Changed 200 mi ago.
-Sparks are newish but already quite black and 2/3 times taken out at least one has been wet.
-Has been driven with e85 ethanol for about 30k miles before. Right now everything's disconnected and runs with just gas.
-Compression consistent but low: Compression test shows about 85 psi for all cylinders dry, and 95 wet. Tested with sparks off, engine not at operating temp but warm. 

Checked:
-Fuel pressure ok (according to mechanics).
-Throttle body cleaned, MAF cleaned.
-e85 flexfuel box completely disconnected and ECU reset after.
-Intake checked for leaks, none found.
-Sparks new, air filter new, fresh oil.
-alternator seems to give good voltage and amps.
-battery voltage fine, and the startup problem persists even when giving boost.
-Added fuel injection cleaner, and drove about half a tank with it.
-Might be I've lost a tiny bit of coolant since summer but no sludge in oil, and coolant seems clear too. Temps ok.

What mechanics said:
-One said we could try to replace the throttle body, but he didn't give much of a reason why that might be the problem.
-One said might be the fuel injectors or the fuel pump.
-Both said: Found nothing wrong with your car, just doesn't start or run right :D.

Haven't started throwing parts at the car, nothing's changed yet. Tomorrow about to take the fuel injectors out, clean them and see if they leak.

Ideas and questions:
-Am I running rich and the compression problem is due to fuel washing out the oil off the cylinder walls?
-Engine just toast?
-Any sense in just swapping the MAF first if I get one cheap to see if it's just that?

Once again huge thanks if you got this far, really appreciate any ideas!

[furtula]

Black sparks sounds like running rich.

Car should start even with MAF unplugged, but will run rich, so you can try it like that.

People on forum keep complaining about car running rough with their gas having 10% e85, and works better with only 5%.

Don't know much about driving on ethanol only, is there some lubrication system like with LPG? Did you check the pistons for scoring with some camera?

What's the consumption like?

[Notoyboy]

Firstly, may I compliment OP, Samuli, on giving an excellent ammount of detail as to the problem.

What stands out for me is the low compression, the running rich signs from the black spark plugs, and the smell of petrol in the oil which has only done 200 miles.  Not being at all conversant with e85, what are it's lubricating properties like?  Has poor "lubricity" contributed to increased bore wear? Poor lubricity (if there's such a word!) might play havoc with the fuel injector pump, and perhaps the injectors, leading to overfueling and subsequent washing of the bores.

Interesting to hear what removal & testing of the injectors reveals.

Good luck with solving the problem, wherever it lies.

[flash22]

Sounds like the bores have been washed by the E85 or if it's on standard injectors they may have been cooked due to running a high duty cycle as E85 needs a higher flow rate, burnt valves maybe another issue but compression is even but low across all 4

I would do a cylinder leak down test and see if it's loosing air into the crankcase, intake or exhaust - inspect the cylinder bores, pistons and valves with a borescope

4 hours ago, furtula said:

Black sparks sounds like running rich.

Car should start even with MAF unplugged, but will run rich, so you can try it like that.

People on forum keep complaining about car running rough with their gas having 10% e85, and works better with only 5%.

Don't know much about driving on ethanol only, is there some lubrication system like with LPG? Did you check the pistons for scoring with some camera?

What's the consumption like?

E5 is 5% ethanol

E10 is 10% ethanol

E85 is 85% ethanol, 15% fuel (petrol or alcohol)

 

Typically, e85 need a higher flow rate anything up to twice as much at WOT

[Samuli]

Wow thanks a lot guys!
 

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Car should start even with MAF unplugged, but will run rich, so you can try it like that.

That's what I heard too! Tried disconnecting MAF but for me the car starts, only briefly visits 1000 rpm, shuts off, gives a bunch of MAF codes and leaves the fan running (even though engine is off) .
 

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Don't know much about driving on ethanol only, is there some lubrication system like with LPG?

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Not being at all conversant with e85, what are it's lubricating properties like?

I hear you - ethanol is a bit more common here in Finland where it's subsidised and cheap compared to gas. It sure is divisive and the short answer – yep it’s sketchy.

If you are interested: There is no extra lubrication system in these conversion kits. As engine needs more ethanol to run, the flexfuel conversion box just measures the amount of ethanol in the fuel, and gives the engine more juice. That's all it does.

Lubrication is a good question! e85 fuel at least here has additives in it to help ignition and to mimic the lubricating properties of gas. That being said fuel companies sure don't tell what's actually in it, and ethanol is still much "dryer" than gas. From what I understand at least with the e85 mixture we use here engine wear is not (directly) what people usually run into. Not saying it couldn't be though. Most common problems are due to what it does to certain plastics - injectors, tubes, fuel pumps etc. It brittles parts that are not designed for ethanol, and on top of this just like flash pointed out every part in the fuel line works harder to run more fuel. People usually cut their oil change interval in half with ethanol, only use API SN.
 

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What's the consumption like?

I'd say my consumption is up just a bit, maybe 10%.

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Firstly, may I compliment OP, Samuli, on giving an excellent ammount of detail as to the problem.

Thanks! It's an amazing thing there are helpful people like you guys. Don't want to waste your time. Used to help a lot of people in computer hardware forums when I was a teenager. Thought the culture of helping for free might have changed. Super glad to see it hasn't!

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Sounds like the bores have been washed by the E85 or if it's on standard injectors they may have been cooked due to running a high duty cycle as E85 needs a higher flow rate, burnt valves maybe another issue but compression is even but low across all 4

I would do a cylinder leak down test and see if it's loosing air into the crankcase, intake or exhaust - inspect the cylinder bores, pistons and valves with a borescope

 

Thanks a lot! I think I'll check the cylinders at least with a camera next! When I've got these injectors out and tested I'll tell what I find out!

Do you guys think I actually ruled anything out by doing the conpression test :D? Could the problem still be say o2 sensors, EGR valve (not sure if this model even has that), MAF or throttle body?

Thank you everybody!

[flash22]

you have lost a lot of compression but it even across all cylinders or the starter/battery is weak and you didn't get a good test

[Phil01]

95 psi...there is your problem, its not just compression its also the lack of negative pressure or vacuum to pull that fuel through the combustion chamber and readily atomise it with the air, just solid fuel droplets that then condense on the cylinder walls and can not propagate a complete combustion, hence petrol in oil, black sooty plugs 

Your engine will never ever work until you sort your compression loss...its not all about compression as vacuum is just important, you loose comp and your have lost vaccum