Engine Swap - Bigger Engine - Any advice?

[Nickleby4]

Hi.  Before we get into this (& I've made that mistake before) I do know what I'm getting into.  I'm a professional engineer with 36 years in the motor trade.  I'm the classic workshop apprentice to professional design engineer by day - and "do a bit of rallying" on the weekend.  So yeah - I'm thinking of buying a perfectly good Aygo and turning it into something horrible to drive....

I think I'm looking for ~150hp with a limited slip diff - Anyone done anything similar that is known about?

If you are still reading, I was wondering whether I can shoehorn one of the older PSA 1.6 engines in here.  Pretty much a TU engine with an MA box - would get me as far as the driveshafts.  Is there some mad science upgrade that I can tag along with?

Thanks in advance - any thoughts welcome - including the inevitable abuse 🙂

[haelewyn]

https://www.hotcars.com/aygo-crazy-with-the-help-of-toyota-and-a-midmounted-turbo-engine/

And this ...

 

This is about a project where they put a heavier engine in the back... Some problems and reasons why are

being described also.

[forkingabout]

The 108 & C1 had the PSA 1.2 non turbo Puretech 3 cylinder engine option available - maybe you could squeeze one of the 130 BHP turbocharged versions under the bonnet but it would be a lot of work.

[haelewyn]

They go up to 130 hp but I guess some extra chipping is possible.

Don't have any early versions of the engine though. They had a bad reputation for several kinds of failures.

 

One thing I read about it is that they have a life expectancy of 80.000 km or something.

[zuh]

Is the project based on a mk1 or mk2? I recommend the mk1.

I guess you will have to place the engine in rear position. The original engine of the Aygo is so small, it even holds some records of tininess and was even used on planes.

I would swap with a 1.3 from a Suzuki Hayabusa like it is done on Minis 😄😄😄

[flash22]

you can make anything fit if you have the time, resources and money, the biggest headache is the electrical

2zz 1.8 with a supercharger will get you in the 400bhp no issue  (as used in many a lotus)

The 1KR isnt a small engine, when you have the 660cc Kei cars, or even 500cc Lombardini 2 cylinder

You should get 150bhp from a 1.5 1nz-fe

1.8 in a Aygo

 

 

 

[Puglet]

Many many years ago, remember a guy in Europe put a bigger toyota engine maybe 1.8 or 2.0 litre into his Peugeot 107, it was a lorra lorra work, but it was done. Unfortunately the website he posted all the gory details on is long gone,even tried searching the web throws up nothing and how it drove who knows, but proves that it can be done if you got the time and patience to do it. As said, it wasn't the easiest or obvious route to more power, but good to know peeps willing to push the boundaries.

[flash22]

 

[forkingabout]

4 hours ago, haelewyn said:

They go up to 130 hp but I guess some extra chipping is possible.

Don't have any early versions of the engine though. They had a bad reputation for several kinds of failures.

 

One thing I read about it is that they have a life expectancy of 80.000 km or something.

The engine is still total garbage even now - there's a Puretech 130 sitting under the bonnet of my 308 T9. 

155 BHP version now available from the factory but normally couple with a EAT 8 speed torque convertor made by Aisin.

 

[Puglet]

Knew there was a reason when we got our Peugeot 108 I stuck with the Toyota 1.0 engine, for me our early 108 the PSA engine was just too new and it had a wet belt/cambelt more added complication then heard about the issues few years after we'd had our 108, thankfully when we got our 108, Peugeot fitted the PSA engine mainly to the posher 108s, which were out of our price range anyway!

[haelewyn]

2 hours ago, forkingabout said:

The engine is still total garbage even now - there's a Puretech 130 sitting under the bonnet of my 308 T9. 

 

I had worse issues on a Mégane 1,2 tce and the brand gave me a new engine after 5 years and 37000 km.

But it was still garbage as the reason why the engine is trash is bad design choices.

A brand new engine still has the same problem then.

I didn't want to speak out my opinion about this PSA engine but I would think it's still bad indeed.

Just the absolute worst choice would be to buy a second hand one that did 70 or 80.000 km. That was my main message.

A new one is a bad idea too as it will (!) fit but it's a bad engine.

 

One engine that is very small and gives high power is the ford ecotec 1.0 that gives power up to 150 hp.

Designed to fit on an A4 piece of paper, they say... This block.

In size it will fit...  If the complete rebuild would have other big problems : I really don't have an idea.

To TS : no inevitable abuse yet, you see ? It's not a bad bunch here 😜

 

[haelewyn]

Sorry .. the Ford engine is an ECOBOOST.

https://www.carsales.com.au/editorial/details/ford-reveals-10-litre-ecoboost-engine-27587/

I heard Scotty Kilmer saying, not a long time ago, that :

engines with direct injection are ok

engines with turbo are ok...
just the ones who have both always give trouble.   I must say it's not easy to find an exception on his rule. 🙂

[flash22]

1.0 ecoboost is 92 hp it's the 1.6 ecoboost that is 150 bhp (Focus and Fiesta ST) the ST-2 gets the same engine but 180 bhp

 

If you can put a 4.7 v8 in a IQ anything is possible, a supercharged 1KR will do 140bhp but not without £2K worth of block and head work

[haelewyn]

In this part of the world, they do sell the Fiesta and Focus with the 1.0 and 125 or 155 hp.
Just checked ... it's possible.

If it were me, I would prefer to spend the 2000 on a supercharged Aygo engine however..
Always cheaper, even if you have to replace it one time extra.

[flash22]

£2k is just to build the block/head the supercharger and electronics will set you back another £4-6K

you can get a 2zz-ge with the same power for £1k

[Nickleby4]

11 hours ago, flash22 said:

 

Thanks all for the thoughts - much appreciated.

I'm realizing I need to read the 2022 rules, but I'm working towards a "road rally" specification car.  9For info this is replacing my E46 BMW with Honda S2000 powertrain, Porsche 4 plate diff conversion et - al).  I'm clear in my head that it will be the same basic rules as 2021 - 4 cylinders, no turbos, engine in the same spot, no bike engines, and standard block, head, and inlet manifold....

This post from Flash is real interesting - thankyou!  As you say, anything is easy with a workshop, a 9" grinder (to cut a big hole), a welder, and a lot of time!  I can feedback on the electronics - I've been there and done it getting the Hondas up on the original ECU - it's doable, not that hard, and don't bother.  the aftermarket ECU's are cheap enough now (recommend Omex or Emerald - definitely not the DTA's or the Megasquirts that are cheap in  the 2nd hand market - because they aren't great) and then bite the bullet on the rollers.

A question that you guys will know (I'm ignorant so far).  As well as arrogant - I think I can do the mounts a bit neater than this guy did (but then kudos - he's got it working!).  It looks like he's got this 2zz mating up to the standard driveshafts. 

What car do I get a 2zz out of / which ones have slippers as standard / and what sort of LSD....?

More feedback on limited slip diffs - my opinion from a loose or low grip surface of course.  The torque biasing things is that they area tiny bit better than open diffs (Quaife ATB is very fragile - make sure you register it at point of sale - you will need that warranty), but then a punch in the mouth is better than a kick in the....    You do need to be very careful on suspension setup to get them working - plated diffs all the way for me - but they usually end up propper noisy and they do try to break you wrists.

Seriously though - many many thanks - this has probably saved me days of research - it is appreciated!!

[forkingabout]

Ford Ecoboom or Aquaboost to give them there trade name are just as bad as the PSA Puretech.

[flash22]

1999-2005 Celica but make sure it's the vvti-l (T Sport), cars are cheap as they rot, lift bolts can be an issue if they haven't been done

If you haven't seen it, have a look at project Binky

https://www.youtube.com/playlist?list=PLGSOZAHg1yQHU1tc_3Y5MTQg1qjtxA_nq

gearbox not sure but i can look it up - C63 or C64

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Toyota_C_transmission#C63

 

[haelewyn]

12 hours ago, forkingabout said:

Ford Ecoboom or Aquaboost to give them there trade name are just as bad as the PSA Puretech.

I agree they are not great engines either and a lot of problems have been reported.

 

Although finding a replacement engine for a car that is the smallest in size with a tiny engine is more difficult than one for a Buick.

If it has to have 150 hp, it's also an extra difficult thing.

It won't be an easy choice.. unless TS wants to rebuild the front of the car completely. 

Maybe then a Yaris in racing version would be the same price and the use of overdoing things would have to be considered by TS.

[Beamracer]

Hey. Looking to get around 130-150hp in the 1KR. with supercharging, bigger injectors, exhaust and a tune. Would this be possible whitout doing more extensive bottom or top end work?

[flash22]

it's not worth the effort or cost, low pressure turbo or charger will get you to 110 ish bhp anything over that you're going to have to blueprint the bottom end and rework the head 10k+ euros that's without an ecu a 1.3 or 1.8 swap will give the same if not better results

at that sort of money, go buy the car you want

[haelewyn]

After having shopped around a bit, this was my conclusion too.

Turbo or charger plus some adaptations would easily come to 10 or 12500 euro.

The works that Beamracer suggests would cost more if done by a specialized garage.

It's not worth it to me.

A simple tune would only give a few (<8) hp extra.

Buy an other car would indeed be the best advice.

[Cbr_customs]

Ok so I have an 09 aygo just got it bulk standard what are minor mods I can do to pik the speed without engine swap and big money 

[haelewyn]

Tuning... Gives you around 8 pk extra. Max... If it's worth it to you, that's about the only thing.
Otherwise you will have to put if full of oct 98, have someone else drive the car while you close your eyes and imagine it really helps and goes faster.

[flash22]

small cars it's all about momentum - tyres, brakes and suspension give it a good service and change the gearbox fluid