Further thought on 12V battery issues

[Tel_man]

Given the number of posts on here about the aux Battery and potential problems, it seems that purchasing a Jump Start unit might be a wise move - they don't seem to be overly expensive for the size we need.... I think I'll get one sometime soon. Will start having a look for which one to get.

[TonyHSD]

Hi, if you are not a regular user or only use the car exclusively on short town trips less than 20 min each once or few times per week then investing in a smart Battery charger and regular recharging the 12v Battery might be a better choice over a jump starter kit. If you drive your car regularly and on longer journeys over 30min each time then having a jump starter in the boot as back up solution is just fine although you may never needed, my car still on its original batteries after 11 years and 196k miles, Toyota hybrid previous generation. 👌

[Catlover]

A jump start unit is fixing a problem that has happened. A smart charger is sorting an anticipated known problem and sorting it before it happens. 
if you using your car daily for more then 30-40 minutes I would think you ok anyway. All depends how you use your car.

[Tel_man]

My normal car usage is just a few short trips per week. My thinking is that should I get a problem, I can use a Jump Starter to get things running. My car parking space doesn't allow for long term connection to a mains powered smart charger. 

Alternatively if anyone knows of a rechargeable smart charger that doesn't need mains power during operation, that would be a good solution.

 

[john p williams]

50 minutes ago, Tel_man said:

Given the number of posts on here about the aux battery and potential problems, it seems that purchasing a Jump Start unit might be a wise move - they don't seem to be overly expensive for the size we need.... I think I'll get one sometime soon. Will start having a look for which one to get.

A great idea and you just cannot go wrong with them. £60-£70 from Amazon. Comments from Tony and Joe below say it all really.

I have one for the Lexus GS as I`m not driving it much these days. 

[AndrueC]

I've begun to think I'm on thin ice with the Battery so I might stick it on charge on Saturday. I'm currently alternating between a weekly 16 mile round trip and a 32 mile round trip. Both trips are mostly open road so the longer one should be fine but I think the shorter trip probably doesn't help the Battery recover. Come Summer I think even the shorter journey will be okay and I'll be doing several of those a week.

[TonyHSD]

In this case perhaps a solar powered charger with panels permanently attached to the rear or side window and when you leave the car plug in into the obd 2 or make a direct connection to the 12v Battery. My neighbour use to have one attached and after a 10 month holiday the car started first time without issues 👍

[Catlover]

Don’t know of any cordless chargers.          
Even if you used a jump starter, you still have to charge the Battery up. Without a charger this will require either you drive the car for an hour or so, of stay with your  parked car and just keep it in READY mode for up to an hour. - result is the same as driving the car but less petrol used and no tyre usage etc. It all depends on the weather, with a fully charged Battery you should be ok in the summer months. Batteries, in general, don’t like cold weather, so lack of use and cold weather can easily cause problems, especially with the fairly small 12v batteries the hybrids are fitted with (they not turning a starter motor so no need to be big).                

 

[Chriss27]

So for instance if you do a small round trip in a hybrid with either the option of using lots of start / stops in built up areas  or dual carriageway is it more beneficial to use the faster roads  for the Battery to recover or does it not matter ?

[camellia30]

I bought a booster, because I thought I drive it enough not to have every day problems, but if I leave it in an airport car park for 2 weeks, that's another matter.

Since then, I've also measured the current drain, it's not bad at all, can't see why the Battery wouldn't last many weeks.

[Cyker]

5 minutes ago, Chriss27 said:

So for instance if you do a small round trip in a hybrid with either the option of using lots of start / stops in built up areas  or dual carriageway is it more beneficial to use the faster roads  for the battery to recover or does it not matter ?

With hybrids its more the length of On/Ready mode time as they supply a fairly constant level of power to the 12v system through the DC-DC converter, so whichever will keep you out longer! TBH you don't even need to drive, you could just stay parked up in P with the car in Ready mode and read a book or something and it'll still charge it!

This is different to non-hybrids, where it's all about engine RPM, as the higher the RPM the more current the alternator puts out, so faster is usually better.

[Roy124]

A solar charger might address the charger issue of you can't use a plug in charger.  Remember solar chargers don't work in multi story car parks though you may be OK in open field parking.

I use semi valet parking; they park, I pick up. Ensuring the solar is set up is not a given. They might have jump start trolleys but with perhaps 800-1,000 cars departing you might have to wait. 

As you say, a Battery pack is cheap as chips.  It also has a light and can charge a USB device. 

 

[Cyker]

The problem is where to mount the panel - Outside the car on the roof would give the best performance but it'd almost certainly get nicked.

Rear window is usually too vertical, plus manufacturers seem to love tinting the back windows (I hate this!) which makes them even less effective.

Top of the dashboard is usually the only really viable place, then it's just a matter of wiring it in. The ODB port is the path of least resistance, but I don't know how robust they are for repeated insertions (ooh err), as they always seem a bit loosely mounted.

 

[Red_Corolla]

Im definitely thinking about a solar charger. My car uses less than half a watt at idle, in addition to the self-discharge that the Battery would suffer from even if it wasn't connected. I don't think a very big solar panel would be necessary, keeping in mind that the power ratings are based on ideal light conditions and the charging stops after dark, but the drain doesn't! 😊

Jump packs are the electrical equivalent of a spare wheel - they get you out of the mire and they're a great thing to have but should never be contemplated as a permanent solution.

[john p williams]

29 minutes ago, Cyker said:

The problem is where to mount the panel - Outside the car on the roof would give the best performance but it'd almost certainly get nicked.

Rear window is usually too vertical, plus manufacturers seem to love tinting the back windows (I hate this!) which makes them even less effective.

Top of the dashboard is usually the only really viable place, then it's just a matter of wiring it in. The ODB port is the path of least resistance, but I don't know how robust they are for repeated insertions (ooh err), as they always seem a bit loosely mounted.

 

Top of the Dashboard and facing South Cyker.

[TonyHSD]

Or under the pan roof or side windows. This car wouldn’t have that issue for sure.👍

https://sonomotors.com/en/sion/

[john p williams]

32 minutes ago, Red_Corolla said:

Im definitely thinking about a solar charger. My car uses less than half a watt at idle, in addition to the self-discharge that the battery would suffer from even if it wasn't connected. I don't think a very big solar panel would be necessary, keeping in mind that the power ratings are based on ideal light conditions and the charging stops after dark, but the drain doesn't! 😊

Jump packs are the electrical equivalent of a spare wheel - they get you out of the mire and they're a great thing to have but should never be contemplated as a permanent solution.

It works every time Stuart, so why can`t its use be seen as a permanent solution ?

[Red_Corolla]

1 hour ago, john p williams said:

It works every time Stuart, so why can`t its use be seen as a permanent solution ?

I see where you're coming from, but the problem is that you haven't actually solved the matter of the Battery going flat repeatedly. Flat lead acid batteries suffer damage every time, so if you allow that to happen repeatedly, you'll eventually reach the point where it can't even stand for one day. At that point, you might as well throw the fitted Battery out and just hook up your portable one before every journey. But, if you do that, it's not a backup solution any more, it's simply a removable Battery. So, going back to my spare wheel analogy, your argument is like, "I don't need to repair my flat because I can fit the spare every time and that's never been punctured yet." You could keep replacing the car's battery each time it dies prematurely, but then it's starting to work out expensive, bearing in mind you already splashed out on the jump pack. For many (but not all) people, there are practical alternatives that prevent the car's own battery from going flat in the first place and allow it to have a longer life.

I hope that explains my point of view without causing offense. It's your car and I have no personal objections to how you choose to run it.

[Roy124]

1 hour ago, john p williams said:

Top of the Dashboard and facing South Cyker.

Which is another reason for getting a Battery pack.

Using valet parking you depend on them placing the panel correctly, parking the car facing south, and plugging the panel in.  Too many variables.

For regular on street parking you often don't have a choice of orientation.

[john p williams]

1 hour ago, Red_Corolla said:

I see where you're coming from, but the problem is that you haven't actually solved the matter of the battery going flat repeatedly. Flat lead acid batteries suffer damage every time, so if you allow that to happen repeatedly, you'll eventually reach the point where it can't even stand for one day. At that point, you might as well throw the fitted battery out and just hook up your portable one before every journey. But, if you do that, it's not a backup solution any more, it's simply a removable battery. So, going back to my spare wheel analogy, your argument is like, "I don't need to repair my flat because I can fit the spare every time and that's never been punctured yet." You could keep replacing the car's battery each time it dies prematurely, but then it's starting to work out expensive, bearing in mind you already splashed out on the jump pack. For many (but not all) people, there are practical alternatives that prevent the car's own battery from going flat in the first place and allow it to have a longer life.

I hope that explains my point of view without causing offense. It's your car and I have no personal objections to how you choose to run it.

Surely, if the procedure as described within the Owners Handbook is followed there is no reason for the Battery to fall flat.

My view is that many owners blame an inadequate Battery when it is their own inadequacy of ignoring the contents of the Handbook which leads to the Battery falling flat.

[Roy124]

JPW, there is a lot in that handbook and even more in the online version.  If people read the handbook it is to find out how to drive the car, not how to maintain it. 

Then consider even for previous Toyota owners Hybrids may be novel.  It is counter to all ICE car operation to switch it on for an hour burning petrol.  Of course it is  not like that in a hybrid. 

Also remember lockdown was novel too. 

 

[john p williams]

12 hours ago, Roy124 said:

JPW, there is a lot in that handbook and even more in the online version.  If people read the handbook it is to find out how to drive the car, not how to maintain it. 

Then consider even for previous Toyota owners Hybrids may be novel.  It is counter to all ICE car operation to switch it on for an hour burning petrol.  Of course it is  not like that in a hybrid. 

Also remember lockdown was novel too. 

 

ok Roy.

None of that stopped me from reading (and re reading mine). If one won`t, then they just won`t. Very sad in my view.

[Catlover]

7 minutes ago, john p williams said:

ok Roy.

None of that stopped me from reading (and re reading mine). If one won`t, then they just won`t. Very sad in my view.

when I get a "new" car I read parts of the handbook that I want to straight away so I can get going with basic things. Then, on a quiet evening or afternoon I will pick up the manual a read deeper into other points. I had the Prius 3.5 years now and still pick up the manual for a read, as I do the manual for our Auris hybrid which we had now for 4.5 years.

[john p williams]

7 minutes ago, Catlover said:

when I get a "new" car I read parts of the handbook that I want to straight away so I can get going with basic things. Then, on a quiet evening or afternoon I will pick up the manual a read deeper into other points. I had the Prius 3.5 years now and still pick up the manual for a read, as I do the manual for our Auris hybrid which we had now for 4.5 years.

We are a dying breed Joe!

[Stopeter44]

I know people who buy new cars and are totally incapable and/or unwilling to reading the handbook. So much so, that to avoid learning anything new, they buy a manual transmission ICE car. I spent hours at a time looking over the manual for the Yaris, and it's the first time I ever did that with any car I bought ! I'm glad I did because with all the RSA/LTA/ACC and tutti quanti, If I didn't have an idea why the car was beeping at me, I would have been very stressed.

I have to admit, given how most of our running about is short <10 km runs except for a couple of 100km trips, I am worried about the state of the 12V Battery. So far no signs of worries.