Radar Cruise Control & Road Sign Assist ???

[Gordon montgomerie]

Hi there,

Picked up my 2020 Corolla Hybrid 1.8 late this afternoon and been reading the manual and many topics in the forum, but I have my first silly question (sorry if this has been asked before but couldn't find anything - if so could somebody suggest what topic to read).

When all switched on and working does the RSA (road sign assist) adjust the cars speed upwards and downwards based on speed signs when using the RCC (radar cruise control) or is RSA just a recognition and warning system ? 

Thanks .

[Cyker]

On the Mk4 Yaris, it's just recognition and warning by default, BUT there is an option to tie it into the cruise control that you can turn on with the steering wheel controls in the car settings menu.

I suspect the Corolla is the same, but don't know for sure!

 

[Catlover]

In my 2016 Prius Excel, no automatic speed reduction, driver still in charge and fully responsible for adhering to speed limits….. and that will remain even if the car does auto slow down.

[Cyker]

Oh nope I tell a lie - Reading the manual more carefully, apparently RCCRSA (!) in the Mk4 just displays the speed limit and allows you to press the RES/SET rocker to change the set speed to the new detected speed limit, instead of you having to set it yourself - It doesn't do it automatically...

I might turn it on to try it out then...!

You'd have to check the Corolla manual to see if it's similar...

[Catlover]

That is still being done manually, you, the driver, has to reset albeit with less finger movement. That how my Prius is. If I doing 60 on cc and the speed limit is 50 then I just flick the cc lever down twice ie 2x 5mph. That is not the car recognising a lower speed limit and automatically reducing the car speed correspondingly.

[Cyker]

Yeah, I thought it was fully automatic but upon reading the manual more it's more a shortcut. Instead of having to flick it down 20 times (Or long-holding it until it jumps down by 4x5), you just press down once and it jumps from e.g. 70 to 50mph, if I understand it right.

 

At the moment I just disengage it, change speed to what I want, then set it again at the new speed; Might try it with this mode, but I think it will slow down far too quickly when going from 70 to 50, as that is a thing it tends to do already if I lower or raise the speed too quickly by a large amount!

[Jiff]

The car sometimes displays the wrong speed limit, so if it did do it automatically you could be going too fast or slow.

For that reason I wouldn't want it auto even if it was an option. 

The comment about the radar cruise control being quite heavy on the accelerator is also something to be aware of. If the car has slowed down because of slower vehicles ahead and you can't pull out to overtake, when you can pull out the car will hit the accelerator quite hard if the speed is significantly lower than set. 

Just something to be aware of. 

[Swanthecat]

I wouldn’t worry, the roadsign recognition never works in the first place. I drive down a local residential area past a motorway junction and the system displays the motorway sign for the next mile or so down the 30mph road. It would be either a very brave or very foolish person to trust that system

[Roy124]

And this is going to be a law on latest model approvals? 

If the automatics work as well as RSA does now we shall have cars doing 70 on 50 mph Road works as it missed a sign, or slamming the anchors on passing a 20 side road on a 30/40 zone? 

You will get the blame if you don't slow down. Who would get the blame if someone ran into you because the car wrongly slowed down?  I guess they would. 

[Stopeter44]

7 hours ago, Swanthecat said:

I wouldn’t worry, the roadsign recognition never works in the first place. I drive down a local residential area past a motorway junction and the system displays the motorway sign for the next mile or so down the 30mph road. It would be either a very brave or very foolish person to trust that system

I was ambivalent to the RSA, sometimes finding it useful to be reminded of the speed limit, but it's based on the last sign it recognises at best, and at worst it takes a WAG. Locally it's wrong most of the time, I'm going to turn it off.

[edit] So I turned it off, which is fiddly, you have to go into Car settings, then find the icon for RSA (looks like a car blowing a bubble gum bubble) and set it to OFF. Lovely, no nearly useless RSA. Hold on, what's this ? I didn't read the print, it comes back on at every power start. Rats! Looks like I'll have to live with it. [edit]

Edited January 15, 2022 by Stopeter44
RSA frustration

[Corollanutter]

Agree with most of the comments above - just use the RSA as a guide - it is certainly not 100% accurate and I wouldn't trust my licence on it. It misses some signs - and then picks up 20mph signs in side roads. 

[AndrueC]

2 hours ago, Swanthecat said:

I wouldn’t worry, the roadsign recognition never works in the first place. I drive down a local residential area past a motorway junction and the system displays the motorway sign for the next mile or so down the 30mph road. It would be either a very brave or very foolish person to trust that system

I think never works is unfair. It mostly works but there are a few times it will get it wrong. These include:

• Roads miss-labelled on the sat nav map.
• Reads signs that aren't limits eg; countdown warnings on the approach to a limit change.
• Reads signs that are not relevant eg; Scottish roads sometimes show a speed limit specific to HGVs but the car picks it up.
• Reads signs from the wrong road. Can happen if two roads are close together.
• And it can fail to read signs sometimes due to camera angle or dirt on the sign.

But apart from that I find that it's mostly correct. It's a useful reminder for those rare occasions when I'm unsure of the limit but there's no way I want to rely on it for anything.

[AndrueC]

1 hour ago, Roy124 said:

Who would get the blame if someone ran into you because the car wrongly slowed down?  I guess they would. 

Always. Assuming you are in control there can never be a good excuse for rear-ending someone. And if you're not in control that's your fault as well.

[Cyker]

The problem is if the car overrides the driver's control, I feel it's not reasonable for the driver to get all the blame - This is the big problem I have with these 'safety' systems taking control away from the driver, and is also going to be a big point of contention when autonomous cars are allowed on the public road - Who is responsible? This point was raised from day one but so far everyone involved is just burying their head in the sand.

I've had several scenarios with this in my Mk4 already:

1) Emerging from the bottom of a T-junction and turning right as a car passed; Car prevented me from accelerating mid-way as it thought I might crash into the car that had already passed (Just my theory), leaving me hanging in the middle of the road with cars approaching from the right, and not letting me accelerate for a few very long seconds.

2) Autonomous braking triggering suddenly for no good reason; Either far too early (e.g. when the stopped car is many car lengths ahead), or due to parked cars.

3) Most recently, lane keeping assist trying to steer the car into a poorly parked van with its wheels sticking out that I had steered away from

3 wasn't too bad as I was gripping the wheel fairly firmly as I was steering out, but was very dangerous as if I was less attentive I could have clipped the van, and were I not used to the car doing things like that I could have panicked and over-corrected into oncoming traffic. 1 and 2 are really brown trousers moments when they suddenly happen out of the blue as there is nothing you can do to override them, and you just have to hope nobody crashes into you in the handful of seconds it takes for the system to decide it's safe to continue; These things have really dented what little confidence I had in autonomous safety. systems...

Toyota haven't been much help either; I've reported it to them and all they say is to take it for (paid) diagnostics - These events are rare and not easily reproducible and given my dealers couldn't diagnose their way out of a wet paper bag it is an utterly pointless suggestion, esp. as the system is working as intended so of course they won't find anything wrong...

 

[Gordon montgomerie]

Thanks to everybody, all good inputs. 

I've just come to a Corolla Hybrid from a Seat Leon MK4 that was able (or could be deactivated ) to adjust the cars speed based on speed signs it recognised .

But I rejected the car and agreed a buy back price with dealer due to 9months of multiple intermittent software and control issues with the car, including 5 garage visits etc. that Seat hasn't / can't fix on the infotainment system, that's seemingly happening across all VW group car's like Mk8 Golf, latest Octavia and MK4 Leon's and newest Ibiza's.

So as long as I know how the Toyota speed sign recognition works I know how to use it, albeit with the limitations of the system.

So with less than 24hrs ownership of my Corolla and only a couple of short runs I love it.

Thanks to all, great forum, full of resources and I'm sure I'll be back soon.

Cheers.

[Cyker]

Glad you're enjoying it! May it give you many miles of happy motoring!  

 

[Roy124]

Cyker, I reckon I have experienced those or similar.  The most disturbing is when the car ahead pulls off on a slip.  Almost after the lane is clear the system can brake hard.  No reasonable driver following would expect quite heavy braking with the lane ahead clear. 

A driver tailgating you could well hit you or get hit in turn if they hit the brakes. 

[Cyker]

Yeah, the radar stays locked onto the car even tho' it's moved out the way so when they slow down your car panicks and slows down too; Is a bit scary the first time; Thankfully this is very predictable when you're used to it so it's a small matter to disable the CC and take over for a moment.

I almost feel like you should get a lesson to familiarize you with such systems when you buy the car as they are actually a bit dangerous if you've never used them before and they suddenly do things on their own!

[AndrueC]

6 hours ago, Cyker said:

The problem is if the car overrides the driver's control, I feel it's not reasonable for the driver to get all the blame - This is the big problem I have with these 'safety' systems taking control away from the driver, and is also going to be a big point of contention when autonomous cars are allowed on the public road

But the Corolla does not have any autonomous systems nor does it have any that can override the driver(*). As drivers we are responsible for switching the assistance features on and responsible for overriding them or switching them off.

There are currently almost no vehicles on the road that do have such systems, none available to the public. So for now at least there can be no excuse for rear-ending the vehicle in front. It is always the result of driving too close or failing to pay attention.

We can worry about the legal (and moral) implications of truly autonomous vehicles if/when they ever appear on the roads.

(*)Actually I suppose the emergency braking feature might fit that description but the only time I've known it trigger so far is when I got a bit too close to the wall of my garage and it pretty much stopped a collision.

My Jazz once triggered the EB system half way round a roundabout. That was because I lunged for what I knew would be a gap once the sod who'd cut out in front of me got out of the way but the car didn't know.

But if EB triggers a rear-end shunt then it's still the driver behind who's at fault. The Highway Code and law are both very clear on this. 'I wasn't expecting it' is not a valid excuse for a rear-end collision. Well - I suppose if Dr Who's Tardis materialises right in front of you it might be but that's the only time I'd say 🙂

[Cyker]

Yes it does - It has the same safety sense systems the Yaris does, which may trigger auto-braking and steering or override the accelerator as I mentioned above. With two of those I had no way of overriding the system, so to me that counts.

And as with all these things, the point is not whose fault it is, the point is not causing accidents that wouldn't have happened in the first place. If it comes down to finger pointing, the system has already failed its intended purpose, i.e. to make driving safer. That is one problem with these autonomous systems - They don't take into account that we are not the only driver on the road!

Our society is just not equipped to deal with these automatic systems yet; There are no laws to cover them and there is no industry standard for them, it's all up to the manufacturer's arbitrary decisions.

I disagree that we can worry about it after the fact; It'll be too late by then and then we'll be in the same situation we're in now with electric scooters and the smart motorways, i.e. that its a mistake but it's too late to do anything about it. Real life has no Undo button.

 

[Roy124]

 

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

It's a bit scary the first time; Thankfully this is very predictable when you're used to it 

I almost feel like you should get a lesson to familiarize you with such systems when you buy the car as they are actually a bit dangerous if you've never used them before and they suddenly do things on their own!

Sometimes that scary moment is on Day 1.

But even after training it might still do something unexpected. A good instructor will have a great depth of experience but modern car development can leave even your expert instructor blind sided. 

[Cyker]

Yes! That's what happened with me!  I didn't mean a lesson like a driving lesson from an instructor, but more a driving-tour by the dealer, just to make the customer aware of these systems in advance and how they might react on the road - Having this behaviour sprung on you for the first time in live traffic is not something I'd recommend!  

Like, the first time it cut the accelerator on me while I was in the middle of a T-junction, and I was freaking out thinking oh no has the car broken already!? (esp. after reports of people with the hybrid system malfunction posting here!), and oh god please nobody crash into me!

Now I know it's (ironically) the anti-collision system overriding my accelerator input, I can modify my driving to reduce the chance of it happening (Mainly by steering much more acutely, and not trying to jump onto the tail of the passing car, although this means I have to wait for a bigger gap than I would in any of my previous cars), but knowing that beforehand in the first place would have saved a few grey hairs!!

 

[AndrueC]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

Yes it does - It has the same safety sense systems the Yaris does, which may trigger auto-braking and steering or override the accelerator as I mentioned above. With two of those I had no way of overriding the system, so to me that counts.

If you choose to activate LTA or LDA then you are responsible for the consequences. And in any case you can correct it if you don't like what it's doing.

In what way can the car override the accelerator? I only know of two ways, speed limiter and radar controlled cruise control. In both cases you can override them and in both cases the driver has to choose to activate them and is therefore responsible for the consequences.

There's only the emergency braking that you can't override and it cannot cause a crash. As I've already pointed out a rear-end collision is always caused by the vehicle behind.

Yes, we need to be familiar with how these systems work but if we're not familiar with them we shouldn't be switching them on.

I'm also of the opinion that anyone who has triggered the emergency braking system more than once needs to moderate their driving. I've only experienced it that once, several years ago when I was being impatient after being forced to stop half way round a roundabout. The system does not have a hair trigger. You have to get into a really hairy situation before it will act.

I absolutely agree that as technology progresses this is going to become an issue. I personally dread the day the car can control my speed using the RSA (I don't need anyone or anything else to control my speed and the RSA is nowhere near accurate enough). But right now I don't think any of the systems Toyota offer on their cars can cause a crash that the driver isn't responsible for.

[Roy124]

AndrueC, there are good drivers, excellent drivers, poor drivers and unqualified drivers, there are old drivers and young driver and there is an average. I submit the average is pretty low. 

As cars become more complex so that average will only become lower. 

[Big_D]

18 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

AndrueC, there are good drivers, excellent drivers, poor drivers and unqualified drivers, there are old drivers and young driver and there is an average. I submit the average is pretty low. 

As cars become more complex so that average will only become lower. 

I've noticed the standard of driving has taken a dive. It's almost as though some people have forgotten how to drive since the lockdown.