PHEV... first serious problem encountered

[Catlover]

We use DAB radio a lot and it’s fine around north west Cheshire and north wales.

[Cyker]

16 minutes ago, dannyboy413 said:

I'm with 'kucyk' - what's DAB? 😄

You're not missing much. It's a solution in search for a problem, and given how much money has been ploughed into it, it really hasn't proven its value over traditional FM IMHO.

On the plus side it allows more radio channels, but on the downside it's much more expensive, the quality's worse half the time and most of the extra channels are garbage anyway.

I only use the radio for traffic announcements these days; If I want to listen to music, I have access to virtually all the music in the world so why listen to someone else's playlist? And most of the hosts and talk radio people just wind me right up and if there's one place I don't want to be angry it's while driving!

The only DAB channel that was any interest to me was the traffic radio channel, but they killed that off some years ago long before I even got a DAB receiver!

IMHO they should move those stations online and give the DAB spectrum to mobile phones and keep 2G running instead of killing it off so only people with new phones can use them still.

 

[Nick72]

27 minutes ago, Cyker said:

PK works at a dealer so I think it's not as funny for him as he's probably encountered people who make such complaints before, but actually seriously  

And we have had some really self-entitled people on here in the past...! (Usually frosty has to roll out his boiler plate "This is forum is not affiliated with Toyota and Toyota do not read these posts etc." at that point  )

 

I do wonder whether the station you're trying to listen to is DAB or DAB+

This government really screwed digital radio by banning DAB+ for many years, before finally allowing some testbed DAB+ transmitter systems.

DAB was a garbage system from the start - It uses narrow channels and rubbish compression so the quality is often worse than FM, and it doesn't even have doppler compensation, so the faster you are moving the more the signal degrades, and it's even worse in built-up areas because it can't handle signal bounce. DAB+ fixes a lot of its flaws, including better compression and doppler compensation, but because of the government initially banning DAB+, it's only really emerged from enthusiast only and filtered into mainstream in the past few years. I'm not sure how many stations have converted to DAB+ or are still using crappy old DAB. I think most vehicles since they changed the car tax do support DAB+ tho'.

😂 I can see why that might have been like a red rag to a bull. Toyota though, high expectations. 😉

 

So the DAB stations I've set up on there all work normally. No problem. And working again now. This was definitely an infotainment software failure because eventually nothing was happening when pressing on any of the channels stored. Didnt even change colour to highlight the selection. No switching of channels. It was frozen. But, I could still select Source again and go to FM or back to AA. My gut feeling is that the DAB software module got its knickers in a twist possibly triggering a bug when I had switched from AA to DAB. The no sound seemed to suggest that the DAB software simply wasn't executing but I'd need to see the software architecture diagram to see how the infotainment software is layered up and when it meets the DAB hardware including its firmware. I'll see if I can repeat things to get it to happen again. If I can be ubikd i guess.

One thought was whether there could have been some kind of update occurring. Are DAB radios cable of OTA updates not unlike some of the older non internet connected digital TVs used to do? Update buried in the broadcast signal.

 

Signal strength very strong. Direct line of sight to the transmitter which is only 15 miles away on top of a very big hill. Some days I can see the mast lighting directly.

[Nick72]

5 minutes ago, Cyker said:

You're not missing much. It's a solution in search for a problem, and given how much money has been ploughed into it, it really hasn't proven its value over traditional FM IMHO.

On the plus side it allows more radio channels, but on the downside it's much more expensive, the quality's worse half the time and most of the extra channels are garbage anyway.

I only use the radio for traffic announcements these days; If I want to listen to music, I have access to virtually all the music in the world so why listen to someone else's playlist? And most of the hosts and talk radio people just wind me right up and if there's one place I don't want to be angry it's while driving!

The only DAB channel that was any interest to me was the traffic radio channel, but they killed that off some years ago long before I even got a DAB receiver!

IMHO they should move those stations online and give the DAB spectrum to mobile phones and keep 2G running instead of killing it off so only people with new phones can use them still.

 

Great when it works, which is usually all the time in the NW. But I'm with you, got the internet and AA so pretty spoiled for choice.

[Cyker]

6 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

😂 I can see why that might have been like a red rag to a bull. Toyota though, high expectations. 😉

 

So the DAB stations I've set up on there all work normally. No problem. And working again now. This was definitely an infotainment software failure because eventually nothing was happening when pressing on any of the channels stored. Didnt even change colour to highlight the selection. No switching of channels. It was frozen. But, I could still select Source again and go to FM or back to AA. My gut feeling is that the DAB software module got its knickers in a twist possibly triggering a bug when I had switched from AA to DAB. The no sound seemed to suggest that the DAB software simply wasn't executing but I'd need to see the software architecture diagram to see how the infotainment software is layered up and when it meets the DAB hardware including its firmware. I'll see if I can repeat things to get it to happen again. If I can be ubikd i guess.

One thought was whether there could have been some kind of update occurring. Are DAB radios cable of OTA updates not unlike some of the older non internet connected digital TVs used to do? Update buried in the broadcast signal.

 

Signal strength very strong. Direct line of sight to the transmitter which is only 15 miles away on top of a very big hill. Some days I can see the mast lighting directly.

Definitely not outside the realms of possibility... Toyota's infotainment systems are not known to be particularly great. They do tend to plough most of their development into the hybrid drivetrain side of things and skimp a bit on others. Having seen the systems in german and even korean marques, Toyotas tends to be well down the ranking tables in my mind, but I'm lucky it suits me because it's a low priority to me too  

Since it's only happened once I'd put it down to just a weird glitch or cosmic rays or ley lines or something. Maybe see if your dealer has any updates for the system at the next service?

I still can't get Traffic Announcements to work with DAB, so I'm still using FM for that!  

[Mikw]

Was it Nadine Dorries closing down all the stations because they broadcast news that doesn't flatter the Prime Minister? 🙂

[Nick72]

50 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Definitely not outside the realms of possibility... Toyota's infotainment systems are not known to be particularly great. They do tend to plough most of their development into the hybrid drivetrain side of things and skimp a bit on others. Having seen the systems in german and even korean marques, Toyotas tends to be well down the ranking tables in my mind, but I'm lucky it suits me because it's a low priority to me too  

Since it's only happened once I'd put it down to just a weird glitch or cosmic rays or ley lines or something. Maybe see if your dealer has any updates for the system at the next service?

I still can't get Traffic Announcements to work with DAB, so I'm still using FM for that!  

Yep you're right. See if it repeats. Might be able to rule out atmospheric neutrons. Although I think Toyota's ICs are from the days where die size means you'd need to hit the transistor with a bullet rather than a neutron to upset it. 😂

 

Sooner the investment went into the drive train. It still makes me smile. Rocketship and smooth.

[Flatcoat]

9 hours ago, Cyker said:

Definitely not outside the realms of possibility... Toyota's infotainment systems are not known to be particularly great. They do tend to plough most of their development into the hybrid drivetrain side of things and skimp a bit on others. Having seen the systems in german and even korean marques, Toyotas tends to be well down the ranking tables in my mind, but I'm lucky it suits me because it's a low priority to me too  

Since it's only happened once I'd put it down to just a weird glitch or cosmic rays or ley lines or something. Maybe see if your dealer has any updates for the system at the next service?

I still can't get Traffic Announcements to work with DAB, so I'm still using FM for that!  

Tend to agree. anyone who hasn't driven a VW with the latest infotainment system - let me tell you I have. it is downright dangerous and universally criticised in the motoring press for trying too hard. In practice the system in the RAV does everything 99% of drivers need. so what if the graphics are dated or the screen less sharp? Does that make any real difference to finding your way with the satnav? From all the cars I tested before settling on the Toyota, the VW system was disliked the most, closely followed by the MG system for being hopelessly slow. Select reverse, listen to a complete track on the radio and the camera might appear. It did however show up VW by having shortcut buttons under the screen. Hyundai has the best system by a country mile but the build quality was a bit flimsy and the PHEV system literally left miles behind by Toyota. So if you buy a PHEV because you want a PHEV then accept compromises elsewhere. If you want infotainment as a priority buy Hyundai and forget the PHEV side. If you simply want cheap then buy MG. I know of an MG buyer from last year who is now buying a RAV PHEV…… sorry for thread drift! 

[Parts-King]

13 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Sorry I thought the comedy might make for a few laughs... major issues, CEOs etc. 😂

Yes I did get it, hence my tongue in cheek reply, working at a dealer it is surprising how easily offended people get and will be right on the phone to the CEO. I would not normally reply in such a way but I had a hunch, couldn't resist

[Stopeter44]

26 minutes ago, Parts-King said:

Yes I did get it, hence my tongue in cheek reply, working at a dealer it is surprising how easily offended people get and will be right on the phone to the CEO. I would not normally reply in such a way but I had a hunch, couldn't resist

It can be even worse when what you say is written down, because you can't get tone of voice and body language into a sentence. One has to be very careful with written statements.

[loz8]

Mrs co-driver has charge of everything but the steering,she did'nt tell me there is a radio,maybe because she hates anything Techie,tells me to get rid of this car,every day.

[Roy124]

As we seem to be dabbing, why do I lose signal on one channel and not another?  The loss of signal on LBC is predictable descending a hill and losing sight of the transmitter continues with the odd pickup before losing it again when parking in front of a shopping shed.  Our local BBC radio is also lost in the same way.  BBC radio 4 OTOH can usually be picked up. 

Different frequency or stronger signal? 

[Parts-King]

39 minutes ago, loz8 said:

Mrs co-driver has charge of everything but the steering,she did'nt tell me there is a radio,maybe because she hates anything Techie,tells me to get rid of this car,every day.

Don't laugh but Mrs Kingo has an Aygo, she doesn't use 5th gear because..........."it's too complicated"   

[Yugguy1970]

It's a computer.  This happens in any computer system.  Reboot it.  If it keeps happening go the dealers and see if there's a patch(update)

I've based a whole career around rebooting IT systems 😀

[nlee]

7 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

As we seem to be dabbing, why do I lose signal on one channel and not another?  The loss of signal on LBC is predictable descending a hill and losing sight of the transmitter continues with the odd pickup before losing it again when parking in front of a shopping shed.  Our local BBC radio is also lost in the same way.  BBC radio 4 OTOH can usually be picked up. 

Different frequency or stronger signal? 

You're on the right lines and a bit of both really.

You may know this already so forgive me. Unlike FM or AM, groups of stations are transmitted on a single frequency then decoded into a single station by your receiver. Because a frequency contains multiple stations they are usually know as Multiplexes and given a code like 12B rather than a wavelength. It's the same principle as Freeview on a TV.

BBC has it own multiplex (which is 12B) for all its national stations. It uses the same multiplex on every transmitter across the country. Regional stations use a range of commercial multiplexes and only transmit from the transmitters for that region. National commercial stations use these multiplexes too. The difference is that a commercial national station may transmit on a different multiplex on different transmitters depending on availabile bandwidth.

The result is that your radio may pick up BBC national stations on 12B from multiple transmitters so it appears to have a strong and more stable connection. It also obviously helps maintain stability on these stations when you move between transmitters.

[ernieb]

Roy, I think the signal strength is the same but the bit rate is probably less so lower sound quality or some may broadcast in mono rather than stereo. But there are probably DAB experts out there who will know for certain. It will also be affected by which transmitter your car is picking up the signal from so one might be stronger the other weaker.

[Nick72]

3 hours ago, Roy124 said:

As we seem to be dabbing, why do I lose signal on one channel and not another?  The loss of signal on LBC is predictable descending a hill and losing sight of the transmitter continues with the odd pickup before losing it again when parking in front of a shopping shed.  Our local BBC radio is also lost in the same way.  BBC radio 4 OTOH can usually be picked up. 

Different frequency or stronger signal? 

I had assumed but probably wrongly that some stations receive more transmit power in the channel (part of the radio spectrum) they've been allocated. So the BBC may have multiple stations bundled into a channel (multiplexed). 

This could be wrong but if not that it could be down to how much bandwidth they have and what they do with it. Perhaps they skimp on error detection and correction or perhaps it is just down to the power x bandwidth product constraints. 

Suspect it could be anyone of a number of things.

My daughter watches Dave over digital terrestrial TV and which drops out now and again as well as being in low res standard TV. So low tx power and low bandwidth. All from the same regional transmitter. No problem with other channels.

[Flatcoat]

4 hours ago, Parts-King said:

Don't laugh but Mrs Kingo has an Aygo, she doesn't use 5th gear because..........."it's too complicated"   

My ex sold new Vauxhall and demo’d a Corsa to a mother and daughter. Their previous Corsa was 4 speed and the new one 5. They asked if they could have it as a 4 speed gearbox version - they didn’t do 5 gears when they learned to drive so wouldn’t be using it. 

[forkingabout]

4 hours ago, Yugguy1970 said:

It's a computer.  This happens in any computer system.  Reboot it.  If it keeps happening go the dealers and see if there's a patch(update)

I've based a whole career around rebooting IT systems 😀

That works with forklifts as well.

A reboot or occasionally even a software update cures a lot of strange electrical issues.

[Stopeter44]

6 hours ago, Parts-King said:

Don't laugh but Mrs Kingo has an Aygo, she doesn't use 5th gear because..........."it's too complicated"

A family member buying a new car (September 2021) didn't get an automatic, because .... it's too complicated !

[Nick72]

Solved. Did it twice today but after removing Waze it was all fine.

Waze is not playing nice with AA. Removed it a while ago before reinstalling last week after it killed off voice commands. I think there's an interrupt problem in the AA software on my old smartphone which is triggered by bad behaviour from Waze. Possibly a not playing nice with my youtube music app. I believe Waze through AA is sending an interrupt to say I'm the audio source. This is clashing with the Toyota infotainment software for source selection in relation to DAB. 

 

Happened twice in one hour with Waze on. Removed it and in 3 hours no repeat so far.

 

Looking likely but not 100pc yet.

Just written an apology letter to Toyotas CEO in Japanese. 

[Devon Aygo]

Nick what software versions are installed?

Press SETUP button , on RH menu set onscreen scroll down and select software update, should see Audio, Navigation & Navdb_version.

 

[Nick72]

2 hours ago, Devon Aygo said:

Nick what software versions are installed?

Press SETUP button , on RH menu set onscreen scroll down and select software update, should see Audio, Navigation & Navdb_version.

 

No idea but will check tomorrow. 

 

Suspect we are dealing with 3 software versions... as this seems to be a combo effect.

Infotainment 

AA

Waze

[Nick72]

16 hours ago, Devon Aygo said:

Nick what software versions are installed?

Press SETUP button , on RH menu set onscreen scroll down and select software update, should see Audio, Navigation & Navdb_version.

 

I'm guessing this is pretty old right? What's the update procedure?

It did start automatically downloading an update a few weeks ago but as there was no indication of progress I waited a while before needing to switch the car off. It had connected to home wifi.

[loz8]

On 1/18/2022 at 10:50 AM, Parts-King said:

Don't laugh but Mrs Kingo has an Aygo, she doesn't use 5th gear because..........."it's too complicated"   

not making fun of co driver,as last week,jumped in pressed start,all lights lit,no engine,repeat 3 times still no engine or drive. Phoned AA,while waiting lifted bonnet,nothing obvious.  Oh well,try again,engine starts,I had missed READY signal first time ,parking with wheels at 45 deg. the steering wheel[bars?] blot out the dash middlebit.cancel AA dont tell co driver.