PHEV... 500 mile round trip tomorrow. Any tips on maximising mpg?

[Nick72]

On 1/31/2022 at 10:39 PM, Flatcoat said:

Sorry but being polite that’s simply Wishful thinking…. How do you increase the power of an electric motor 300% and what is that measured against? And if that is the case why the rush to go EV now? Why not wait until the technology is here? Another few years using oil will make little difference. The very fact this policy is pushed by politicians and clueless civil servants who have no idea how the world lives and works is in itself the reason it will fail. 

Theres no wishing about it. It's a technical reality. I do advanced technology trend analysis for a living so perhaps I can help explain it.

Specific power. In other words, the power output per unit mass of the motor. Many different ways to improve specific power. Current approaches are crude. Magnetic configuration, materials, pulsed power supplies, improved manufacturing techniques etc. Can't share my work here as it is proprietary but there are plenty of papers and analysis on this in the public domain. Aviation driving the technology. Electric actuation and propulsion. Automotive too but to a lesser extent. They don't have the same size, weight and power challenges nor can achieve the price point with the best tech. Just have a google. No magic or unobtainium required, no graphene-copper windings or superconducting motors. Just extensions of the current tech which is in its infancy.

I agree on the why now point but here's the thing. To get to that future point requires investment now in what is a compromised position but that gives industry the ability to build on that and achieve the next step up and so on. It's technology economics. Always been that way. Innovation 'S' curves. When steam ships came along they were in many respects inferior to sail ships but over time they exceeded them but eventually they couldn't get further gains from them. They were on the law of diminishing returns. And along came gas turbines. Which were initially inferior to steam. Draw this out on the charts and you see overlapping 'S' curves that describe how one tech replaces the next. Performance vs time. This is what we are seeing in automotive. Only a matter of time.

As for Battery specific energy (energy per unit mass) LiPo, LiS, LiAir have got a long way to go. 4 or 5 times improvement in the next 15 years. No magic required here either. Economically fuelled incremental gains. No supercapacitors required. Whilst batteries won't reach the specific energy of chemical combustion (40MJ per kg for Kerosene) the overall system presents a better solution in terms of performance however you measure it. Compact motors, new design freedoms, and energy efficiency means that in automotive at least there's really no contest. The biggest issue is our ability to competively mine enough rare earth metals etc. which comes a lot of problems. But, again, there's another S curve for that which obviate these issues.

 

Hope this helps.

[Stopeter44]

Thanks for that summary. I watched a documentary a few years back, essentially about solar power, that explained the evolution of efficiency of solar power and the diminishing costs of the manufacturing the panels, in a similar way.

[Toomanytoys]

I am afraid it won't be a new/nearly new car. 

Mmm. Interesting job, better than my career path has taken into the pharmaceutical world..

I started my technical career in galium ubiknide epitaxial manufacturing.. substrates for solar cell, photon multipliers, fast partial detectors (CERN in search of the 4th quark)...

[Stopeter44]

1 hour ago, Toomanytoys said:

I started my technical career in galium ubiknide epitaxial manufacturing.. substrates for solar cell, photon multipliers, fast partial detectors (CERN in search of the 4th quark)...

I seen you've been UBIK'ed ! Too many ubikholes on the road today, etc .... Contd. p.94 😉

[Toomanytoys]

Oh.. it's "corrected" something that isn't a swearword... 

[Flatcoat]

Thanks Nick for your informative response. I understand the S curve theory - and practice on those occasions when it works. However my view is that EV is the equivalent of the steam ship, a very short term phase that will be leapfrogged. And how many tech forecasts have been wrong? VHS v Betamax….. CD’s….. all short term interim technology. I love electrical propulsion, quiet, lots of power but….. expensive, heavy, requires massive infrastructure and inflexible. 

[Nick72]

9 hours ago, Flatcoat said:

Thanks Nick for your informative response. I understand the S curve theory - and practice on those occasions when it works. However my view is that EV is the equivalent of the steam ship, a very short term phase that will be leapfrogged. And how many tech forecasts have been wrong? VHS v Betamax….. CD’s….. all short term interim technology. I love electrical propulsion, quiet, lots of power but….. expensive, heavy, requires massive infrastructure and inflexible. 

I think this is why PESTLE is an essential part of the analysis in trends these days. Beta max was a better format, better quality.  We all knew that but to succeed also requires the politics which was in favour of VHS as a result of vested interests in the main.

There's nothing to suggest that the current EV surge is a dead end. Problems yes but a million miles from anything insurmountable. All the political and environmental support and following winds too.

In my experience once the science and tech is understood (which it is) it's now a matter of engineering and economics. The former is simply time and money.

Far too many issues with hydrogen and synthetic fuels to list here. Multipky the EV infrastructure costs by about 2 to 5 for hydrogen. Looked at this for aviation and space. And ICE has to go in the long run.

[Cyker]

1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

Beta max was a better format, better quality.  We all knew that but to succeed also requires the politics which was in favour of VHS as a result of vested interests in the main.

I used to think that too but it turns out that's a myth!

Betamax had slightly better quality, but also had loads of problems like a lack of form-factor flexibility and far lower runtime limit. It also turns out the reason it didn't take over was mainly down to Sony doing the same thing they've always done (i.e. Shooting themselves in the foot with onerous licencing terms and being highly guarded and restrictive about 'their' format).

(Disclaimer: everything I learned I got from this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyKRubB5N60&list=PLv0jwu7G_DFUrcyMYAkUPODENwP4gYCmf and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWl9Wux7iVY )

 

[Roy124]

Cyker, and Philips was better with reversible tape too.  Programming was quite different too.  Separate starts and stop windows rather than sequential.

[Nick72]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

I used to think that too but it turns out that's a myth!

Betamax had slightly better quality, but also had loads of problems like a lack of form-factor flexibility and far lower runtime limit. It also turns out the reason it didn't take over was mainly down to Sony doing the same thing they've always done (i.e. Shooting themselves in the foot with onerous licencing terms and being highly guarded and restrictive about 'their' format).

(Disclaimer: everything I learned I got from this guy: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FyKRubB5N60&list=PLv0jwu7G_DFUrcyMYAkUPODENwP4gYCmf and https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hWl9Wux7iVY )

 

Hmmm. I also heard this alternative but it was the power of the VHS consortia that tipped the scales. How much of what the chap says contributed who can say? It could well have been a contributor.

[Nick72]

To be honest I'm still looking for the VHS recorder loop in the RAV. It's got to be involved in the reversing cam somewhere.

[ernieb]

8 hours ago, Nick72 said:

Hmmm. I also heard this alternative but it was the power of the VHS consortia that tipped the scales. How much of what the chap says contributed who can say? It could well have been a contributor.

What really impacted the sales in favour of VHS was the additional media that was available for it that was not there for Betamax and Philips 1", The film industry backed VHS, so end of the rest.  I of course opted for the 1" version, great quality, stable freeze frame and watchable fast forward etc., great sound, that's life I guess....

Luckily I did not go for 8 track audio, sorry?

[Flatcoat]

I love the way this thread has drifted! However, to say hydrogen and synthetic fuel have too many problems to solve and then argue the many unresolved problems with batteries and EV can and will be solved simply doesn’t add up. That is twisting the argument to suit a preferred outcome. As I have said elsewhere it is time politicians and disconnected civil servants and others wound their necks in and leave it to the markets. I am still waiting for the first EV battle tank and jet fighters…… powered by wind turbines and solar panels….. 

[Nick72]

On 2/3/2022 at 9:07 AM, Flatcoat said:

I love the way this thread has drifted! However, to say hydrogen and synthetic fuel have too many problems to solve and then argue the many unresolved problems with batteries and EV can and will be solved simply doesn’t add up. That is twisting the argument to suit a preferred outcome. As I have said elsewhere it is time politicians and disconnected civil servants and others wound their necks in and leave it to the markets. I am still waiting for the first EV battle tank and jet fighters…… powered by wind turbines and solar panels….. 

Not really. The problems are an order of magnitude different. Technologically and economically. 

Looked equally hard, same level of scrutiny, on hydrogen for aviation. Aviation does have an advantage however which I'll come on to.

The issues with hydrogen are...

Generating it on demand and in bulk uses the Texaco process. A dirty hydrocarbon fracturing process. But it is the most efficient and cost effective. Two problems here. The environment. The size of facility you need. Airports can get away with it. Forecourts and car drivers can't. 

The latter means shipping hydrogen from A to B. Costly because hydrogen is c. 4 times more voluminous than kerosene. Requiring heavy pressure vessels to get the volume down which are expensive (and further affects the environment through transportation energy and costs). These same pressure vessels are required at the forecourts thus complete reworking of large underground storage. Big infrastructure cost. As big if not more than EV infrastructure. 

Hydrogen is one of the most leaky gas there is. Size, molecular degrees of freedom are the reason. That means you can't store it for any length of time. Safety issues but also constant replenishment is required. More transportation or local generation now required.

Last but by no means least is the hydrogen embrittlement problem. Known for a long time in spacecraft and rockets. Hydrogen breaks stuff is a simple way of putting it, unless you want me to get into the science. Happy to. Have 5 graduate and post grad qualifications here including physics. Not an exaggeration. 

When you add all of the above up hydrogen only makes sense in niche circumstances. Even with a new electrolysis process that doesn't involve platinum or other precious metals (which has been necessary in what is a terribly low efficiency process) the other issues I mention start to overwhelm. But you can't generate the mass throughput needed via electrolysis. It's low rate production.

It's why we have EVs rather than hydrogen cars. EVs have some way to go but the pathway is clear with only low risk. Hydrogen in automotive is moderate to high risk. Technologically, economically, and environmentally. A much tougher ladder to climb and although water is the only byproduct it is not as environmentally friendly as it sounds. EVs are no angel's here either by the way but the point is hydrogen is not much better when considered holistically and assuming no one is using the Texaco process or similar.

All I'd recommend is to do your own research as you've no reason to trust my reasoning and experience on this. But, I'd start with Google scholar and reputable engineering magazines like those from the engineering councils (IET, RAeS, Royal Academy of Engineering) rather than the Daily Mail or SM posts.

[Nick72]

On 2/3/2022 at 7:27 AM, ernieb said:

What really impacted the sales in favour of VHS was the additional media that was available for it that was not there for Betamax and Philips 1", The film industry backed VHS, so end of the rest.  I of course opted for the 1" version, great quality, stable freeze frame and watchable fast forward etc., great sound, that's life I guess....

Luckily I did not go for 8 track audio, sorry?

We had an 8 track. There are some songs that I now know off by heart. 🤣

[ernieb]

2 minutes ago, Nick72 said:

We had an 8 track. There are some songs that I now know off by heart. 🤣

I stuck with cassette tapes….. those were the days and we thought they were so good.

 

[Nick72]

1 minute ago, ernieb said:

I stuck with cassette tapes….. those were the days and we thought they were so good.

 

C90. It was a miracle.

Especially welcomed for cramming 20 plus Atari 400 games onto a single cassette. 🤣 So I heard obviously.

I still crave Choplifter, Airstrike II, and more. But, when feeling nostalgic, usually also drunk, I'll fire up YouTube to watch them again. Only then realising how crap it all was. 🤣

[Nick72]

1 minute ago, Nick72 said:

C90. It was a miracle.

Especially welcomed for cramming 20 plus Atari 400 games onto a single cassette. 🤣 So I heard obviously.

I still crave Choplifter, Airstrike II, and more. But, when feeling nostalgic, usually also drunk, I'll fire up YouTube to watch them again. Only then realising how crap it all was. 🤣

Since this thread has drifted like Flatcoat mentioned I wondered if anyone remembers Fighting Fantasy books from the early 80s. Jackson, Livingstone. 

Hopefully we'll be able to read them again whilst going for a drive in self driving mode. ...but not for another 10 years on that one. I can explain LOL.

[Cyker]

Ooh mee meeee!

Was a massive fan, still have a load of them on my bookshelf, although I thought Joe Dever's Lone Wolf series were better. Love that it still lives on after his death through ProjectAon. CYOA was for lamers!  

It's interesting watching the way the prices have changed over the decades - The first ones I have were like 50p, whereas the last ones I bought were something like £6.99!  

Did you know Livingstone has made a few new ones recently (Well, a couple years ago now  )

 

[Nick72]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

Ooh mee meeee!

Was a massive fan, still have a load of them on my bookshelf, although I thought Joe Dever's Lone Wolf series were better. Love that it still lives on after his death through ProjectAon. CYOA was for lamers!  

It's interesting watching the way the prices have changed over the decades - The first ones I have were like 50p, whereas the last ones I bought were something like £6.99!  

Did you know Livingstone has made a few new ones recently (Well, a couple years ago now  )

 

Yeh agree.

Wasn't sure if Livingstone was still alive. That was better than video games in the day.