Newbie researching RAV4 PHEV

[Stopeter44]

4 hours ago, Toomanytoys said:

I am researching, BEV is likely not going to work for me yet, PHEV could be an option. Keeping the current car is always an option.. just started feeling a little guilty of the large amount of fuel I am using..  

Of course, buying a used smaller, nippy but economical car is an option to do the commute's in..

All things being equal, which, generally, they are not, I think that many two car households could have one EV with no problems. I even considered this as an option, keeping the old car for when I had range anxiety and getting a new car EV for the daily grind. For me, it didn't work because that would mean doubling insurance, and I only have space for one car in the garage.

I'm surprised at the number of cars on our road that are not kept in a garage, I can understand this for those living in a 1950 house with a garage big enough for an A30 (width < 1,40 metres) but the houses on our road are all < 3 years old. people like to get into freezing cars in the winter and baking cars in the summer, it seems !

[philip42h]

10 minutes ago, Stopeter44 said:

All things being equal, which, generally, they are not, I think that many two car households could have one EV with no problems. I even considered this as an option, keeping the old car for when I had range anxiety and getting a new car EV for the daily grind.

Exactly so 🙂  We are such a two car household, but have wound up with a pair of hybrids simply because an EV could be too limiting for whichever one of us got 'stuck' with it. We are both retired so don't have a "daily grind" at all - if we did then having an EV for commuting purposes would have been persuasive. Instead, we do either relatively short trips locally - so it doesn't really matter what we drive - or much longer trips, often independently, so an EV won't cut the mustard yet. Maybe once the prices come down a bit and the recharging infrastructure improves vastly ...

[ernieb]

19 minutes ago, Stopeter44 said:

All things being equal, which, generally, they are not, I think that many two car households could have one EV with no problems. I even considered this as an option, keeping the old car for when I had range anxiety and getting a new car EV for the daily grind. For me, it didn't work because that would mean doubling insurance, and I only have space for one car in the garage.

I'm surprised at the number of cars on our road that are not kept in a garage, I can understand this for those living in a 1950 house with a garage big enough for an A30 (width < 1,40 metres) but the houses on our road are all < 3 years old. people like to get into freezing cars in the winter and baking cars in the summer, it seems !

I’d be very surprised if you could not select cabin conditioning for an all EV you can certainly do it for the PHEV both summer and winter.

[FROSTYBALLS]

20 minutes ago, Stopeter44 said:

I'm surprised at the number of cars on our road that are not kept in a garage, I can understand this for those living in a 1950 house with a garage big enough for an A30

In the UK, it seems a lot of people either cannot garage their cars due to the size of either the car or the garage (this latter point also applies to some new houses), or use their garage for storage, leaving the car outside.

[ernieb]

My car is on the drive my mid ‘60’s house has a garage but it would be a small car indeed that would fit through the door and leave any kind of room to open a car door. I’m not even sure I could get the RAV through mine even with the wing mirrors closed.

[Toomanytoys]

No off road parking, no garage.. currently.. less than ideal..

My partner could go electric, it would be manageable for her (even with no drive etc),  but the cost involved makes that impossible.. she drives a £3500 car and fills up 1-2 times a month. (700 miles).

I am currently doing min of 650 miles a week.. which is an utter pain.. 

 

[Flatcoat]

No garage so no option. However we do have in curtilage parking so charging is not a problem. My previous home had unallocated off-road parking so no idea how they will sort out charging for anyone with an EV. 

[Stopeter44]

1 hour ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

In the UK, it seems a lot of people either cannot garage their cars due to the size of either the car or the garage (this latter point also applies to some new houses), or use their garage for storage, leaving the car outside.

It's probably even more like that in France, think of how people here live in apartments rather than houses, and there is next to no pre-cabling for installing  a charging point in an allocated parking bay in a multi apartment building with parking. Here the government is prepared to throw up to 6000€ at EV car buyers, but the infrastructure details are ignored.

[Nick72]

7 hours ago, ernieb said:

My car is on the drive my mid ‘60’s house has a garage but it would be a small car indeed that would fit through the door and leave any kind of room to open a car door. I’m not even sure I could get the RAV through mine even with the wing mirrors closed.

No garage anymore. It's the COVID home office. The garage door is bricked up and a window put in. Lol.

[ernieb]

9 hours ago, Nick72 said:

No garage anymore. It's the COVID home office. The garage door is bricked up and a window put in. Lol.

My sons large garage was converted into a kitchen/living room for his mother-in-law which has worked really well, lovely lady. It’s a great use of the space and they still have three parking spaces on the drive. Same thing, door bricked up and window matches the one on the other side of the house, you’d never know it was nit built like that in the first place.

[Toomanytoys]

I wonder if Toyota (and others) have missed a trick here..

Bare with me... Use the Yaris GR 1.6t, detuned for wide spread of torque (small forced induction is cleaner and more efficient), maybe mated to a 7 or 8 speed dct box, bigger Battery that could poss top the new BIK level of 130 miles+... 

Any PHEV with upwards of 100 mile electric range would really work for me.. Personally I think this is where manufacturers have gone a bit wrong (and thought this for a while), not giving PHEV a bigger range.. with Hybrids it probably wouldn't be so usefull as it needs to be able to recharge itself.. 

Closest to this I am aware of, is the little BMW i thingy with range extender engine.. but surely that would have been better to drive the wheels than try and charge the Battery to drive the wheels..

Ok, maybe well "off piste" now.. (don't think converted garages are "on piste" either ha ha ha)

 

[Catlover]

Thing is…. With PHEV and HEV there is a big lump of metal called an engine. Increase Battery size = increase weight. There is a point where the balance between weight and performance tips over.

[Flatcoat]

Forced induction is not cleaner! That is why turbo petrol engines are now fitted with particulate filters. All the diesel demonisation about particulates totally ignores the fact that turbo petrol engines are just as bad. One of the reasons I like the RAV is the large capacity undressed engine. Mazda have a similar philosophy. 

[Toomanytoys]

Mmm.. hadn't realised that particulate filters were on newer turbo petrols too.. My OB is 2011, newest car I have ever owned..

Yes, I appreciate more Battery = more weight. But smaller engine etc compensates..

BEV's are super heavy.. Enyak 80x is 2.2t curb weight..

 

[Toomanytoys]

Perhaps the best way to save the planet is to not sell any new cars and use the vehicles we already have more effectively.. 

Scrappage scheme didn't take many crappy cars off the road.. what it did do was take perfectly serviceable underutilised cars off the road that could have been used to replace the worn out ones.. 

[Stopeter44]

Just now, Toomanytoys said:

Perhaps the best way to save the planet is to not sell any new cars and use the vehicles we already have more effectively.. 

Like Mad Max 🤔 ?

[Catlover]

I would also against a 7 or 8 speed gearbox, Toyota have got an ultra reliable drive train in their hybrid vehicles. Perhaps over engineered 22 years ago when the first Prius came out but there is nowt wrong with that.

[Cyker]

I'm with you there - Never liked automated manuals like MMT or DCT/DSG!

Turbo cars don't have to have high particulates if they're set up properly - The reason petrol cars are getting this problem is partly because they are using diesel-tactics, but also they are trying to do things on the cheap.

1) Direct injection - The beauty of port-injection and carbs are they get a very even mix of air and fuel so it burns very cleanly. The problem diesel always had, and that Direct injection petrol inherited, is no matter how high the injection pressure, you will never get a mix as good as port injection/carb, so there will be areas where the fuel is not mixed with the air enough to burn properly, so you get incomplete combustion and thus particulates.

2) Turbo anti-knock strategies - One massive problem with turbos on petrol engines is it greatly increases their susceptibility to knock because the cylinder pressure is higher and the intake air is hotter. With diesel, there is no fuel in the cylinder during compression, so they don't care about this, but with petrol when that hot turbo'd air and fuel mix is squeezed, it is at a much higher risk of knock and detonation.

To lower that risk, there are strategies like lowering the compression ratio so the squeeze doesn't make it so hot, adding things like intercoolers so the squeezed air-fuel mix is cooler before squeezing, requiring high octane fuel to resist knock etc.

These all have downsides and make the car more expensive to make, so what a lot of manufacturers do instead, is inject more fuel than the engine can burn, i.e. a rich mixture, as the extra fuel soaks up some of that cylinder heat, lowering the in-cylinder temps, so there is less risk of knock.

Unfortunately, that rich mixture also can't burn fully as there is too much fuel, so you get more particulates.

I've never liked turbos in petrol cars for these sorts of reasons; In a diesel engine it is a total no-brainer as there are almost no downsides aside from the extra parts cost, and lots of upsides, but with petrol engines there are a lot of downsides and only really one upside...!

 

[Nick72]

13 hours ago, Toomanytoys said:

Mmm.. hadn't realised that particulate filters were on newer turbo petrols too.. My OB is 2011, newest car I have ever owned..

Yes, I appreciate more battery = more weight. But smaller engine etc compensates..

BEV's are super heavy.. Enyak 80x is 2.2t curb weight..

 

Probably 400kg of Battery and electric motors on the R4P. Double the Battery capacity and add another 300 plus kg. Which means probably only getting c. 1.7 times the range because of the extra mass. F = m * a. And that doesn't include the extra structure (more mass) or the volume increase (more drag). So probably only 1.5 times the range. 

New Battery tech will however fix this. As will new electric motors. Both better by a factor of 3 (specific energy and specific power respectively) within 10 years. So the R4P 10 years from now might hit the spot for you but then again no one is going to need or want to make PHEVs at that point. 700 mile ranges and 500hp in lighter cars will be common.

 

 

[Nick72]

4 hours ago, Cyker said:

I'm with you there - Never liked automated manuals like MMT or DCT/DSG!

Turbo cars don't have to have high particulates if they're set up properly - The reason petrol cars are getting this problem is partly because they are using diesel-tactics, but also they are trying to do things on the cheap.

1) Direct injection - The beauty of port-injection and carbs are they get a very even mix of air and fuel so it burns very cleanly. The problem diesel always had, and that Direct injection petrol inherited, is no matter how high the injection pressure, you will never get a mix as good as port injection/carb, so there will be areas where the fuel is not mixed with the air enough to burn properly, so you get incomplete combustion and thus particulates.

2) Turbo anti-knock strategies - One massive problem with turbos on petrol engines is it greatly increases their susceptibility to knock because the cylinder pressure is higher and the intake air is hotter. With diesel, there is no fuel in the cylinder during compression, so they don't care about this, but with petrol when that hot turbo'd air and fuel mix is squeezed, it is at a much higher risk of knock and detonation.

To lower that risk, there are strategies like lowering the compression ratio so the squeeze doesn't make it so hot, adding things like intercoolers so the squeezed air-fuel mix is cooler before squeezing, requiring high octane fuel to resist knock etc.

These all have downsides and make the car more expensive to make, so what a lot of manufacturers do instead, is inject more fuel than the engine can burn, i.e. a rich mixture, as the extra fuel soaks up some of that cylinder heat, lowering the in-cylinder temps, so there is less risk of knock.

Unfortunately, that rich mixture also can't burn fully as there is too much fuel, so you get more particulates.

I've never liked turbos in petrol cars for these sorts of reasons; In a diesel engine it is a total no-brainer as there are almost no downsides aside from the extra parts cost, and lots of upsides, but with petrol engines there are a lot of downsides and only really one upside...!

 

I used to love petrol turbos. Relative had a Colt Turbo. Loved it. Upgraded turbo, whole set of mods, 300hp, 900kg (was 970 but stripped back) car. Looked terrible. Like an old persons mobility car. But the fastest car I ever drove. The sound of the turbo and 4 inch exhaust was like standing next to a turbo prop aircraft engine. It was utterly insane. As soon as the turbo spun up in was Star Trek black alert and you had just cheated space-time. FWD so it only worked in the dry. Loved that car. It was a sleeper from another dimension.

[Flatcoat]

Had a 944T which was no slouch but a bit like driving with an on/off switch under the accelerator pedal. Also had an Astra 888 CDTI which was essentially a 120bhp diesel Astra coupe remapped to 200+ horses and kitted out like the BTCC Astra’s of the time. That was also pretty insane channelling all that torque through the front wheels. As for your thoughts on future improvements in Battery and electric motor efficiency- we will have to disagree. I would love to see the independently evaluated evidence. Impossible at an affordable and deliverable price and that is before we even get onto the lack of generating capacity. This is not just a UK concern. Friends in Germany think their new Givts plans to electrify everything are a total pipe dream. We also have strong links with Czech Republic, try finding an EV charging point in Prague…. no one in CZ is interested in EV’s and think Skoda are losing the plot turning their back on ICE. 

[Nick72]

1 hour ago, Flatcoat said:

Had a 944T which was no slouch but a bit like driving with an on/off switch under the accelerator pedal. Also had an Astra 888 CDTI which was essentially a 120bhp diesel Astra coupe remapped to 200+ horses and kitted out like the BTCC Astra’s of the time. That was also pretty insane channelling all that torque through the front wheels. As for your thoughts on future improvements in battery and electric motor efficiency- we will have to disagree. I would love to see the independently evaluated evidence. Impossible at an affordable and deliverable price and that is before we even get onto the lack of generating capacity. This is not just a UK concern. Friends in Germany think their new Givts plans to electrify everything are a total pipe dream. We also have strong links with Czech Republic, try finding an EV charging point in Prague…. no one in CZ is interested in EV’s and think Skoda are losing the plot turning their back on ICE. 

Plenty of peer reviewed papers on the trends and tech. And much more on the more exotic low TRL approaches which promise a ten fold increase in 10 years albeit these aren't certain.

[Toomanytoys]

If they can break the perovskite degradation issues, there will be a major breakthrough for solar.

I have no doubt that there will be major improvements in Battery tech and motor tech.. maybe I can make the leap then..

My Saab 9-3 turbo was a cracking car remapped to 220bhp and 360nm. Properly quick, 40+mpg if you kept your foot out.. 48k miles in 18 months..

[Flatcoat]

I don’t mean theoretical academic papers, I am talking about engineered prototypes with technology that is scalable for mass production. There are dozens of ideas and abandoned prototypes littering automotive history. There are also plenty of papers and manufacturers saying all the major efficiency improvements are now achieved. Any future improvements are going to be very small and incremental, 0.2% here and 0.3% there, if lucky. And raw material costs are rising exponentially as China buys up all the resources. 

[Cyker]

16 hours ago, Nick72 said:

I used to love petrol turbos. Relative had a Colt Turbo. Loved it. Upgraded turbo, whole set of mods, 300hp, 900kg (was 970 but stripped back) car. Looked terrible. Like an old persons mobility car. But the fastest car I ever drove. The sound of the turbo and 4 inch exhaust was like standing next to a turbo prop aircraft engine. It was utterly insane. As soon as the turbo spun up in was Star Trek black alert and you had just cheated space-time. FWD so it only worked in the dry. Loved that car. It was a sleeper from another dimension.

Haha I love stuff like that! Never been one for shouty cars, best kind are the unassuming innocent looking sh-err-poop boxes that are hiding a monster underneath  

 

As for EVs, the tech level is already more than adequate and, IMHO, we don't really need many more advances - Electric motors are already mid-high-90's in terms of power conversion efficiency; The power electronics like the inverters and such could do with a bit more improvement, but the incredibly high-speed processing power and solid state electronic switching we have had for decades means that's mostly just iterating software tweaking and sensors now.

The main reason a lot of newer EV's have increasingly worse efficiency is not the tech, it's the manufacturers making them big and heavy and brick-like, and loading them with electronic garbage that has nothing to do with driving. The Kona could do 5 miles/kWh (Which is very good!) and that came out ages ago, so it can be done with the tech we already have.

The single thing holding EVs back is the energy storage part - Batteries are still garbage for energy storage compared to chemical fuels; I think it's in the region of 2 orders of magnitude (i.e. 100x) worse, which is why even with the 20-30% conversion efficiency of a petrol engine they can still go further and faster than EVs, and when you get insane things like the new TNGA Toyotas that can average 40% or diesels that get into the 50%'s it makes it even more challenging.

The funny thing is EV's will never need to carry as much energy, as their conversion efficiency is so much higher, but even so just getting them into the same ballpark with so little has still proven harder than I thought it would...

We just really need either a major breakthrough in Battery tech or some out of left-field energy storage or generation system - A 2x-3x improvement would make EVs work for everyone. Or just keep digging at those small percentage increases and hope eventually they add up!