HEV or PHEV? More to it than just economy?

[philip42h]

I didn't notice whether you said this would be a company car or a private purchase ... ?

You will always get better fuel economy (mpg) with the PHEV - provided you charge it! The EV miles mean that it will always win out over the HEV. The PHEV wins in terms of environmental impact.

When I bought mine (privately) the price difference between a PHEV and HEV was approaching £10k (it's less now) but whether / when you will recoup that price difference will depend on your journey profile and annual mileage, For me, I wouldn't have recouped the additional cost over the lifetime of the car (and I planned it as a keeper) and, anyway, I wasn't able / prepared to invest the additional cash. Each buyer would have to do their own estimation of the relative economics based on their own circumstances.

The economic equations for company car drivers are quite different ...

As to the other 'differences':

• I haven't driven a PHEV but I would imagine that the lighter HEV will be more agile and should corner a shade better, and the PHEV being heavier will sit more squarely on the road. The HEV doesn't lean appreciably in the corners; the PHEV has a lower centre of gravity and may lean even less.
• It is rumoured that the PHEV has more / better sound proofing but that aside, the PHEV will be, on average, the quieter car as it spends a greater proportion of it's time in EV mode. The HEV is more reliant on the ICE for performance; the PHEV is more reliant on its front electric motor for performance.
• The performance of the HEV is more than adequate (as you know) - no one needs the additional performance of the PHEV. Equally, no one with a PHEV would give up that performance 'advantage'.

And, finally, and to your last point, if the PHEV Excel was available (at a sensible price) I'd have one of those for preference any day! 🙂

[Flatcoat]

In respect of ride I cannot say the PHEV is noticeably different however it is much, much quieter. We had the same dilemma over the specs and really wanted PVM however we also wanted the power of the PHEV for towing. There are other minor differences too, slightly smaller boot, no spare wheel however you can pre-heat or cool the PHEV cabin - not sure that is a HEV feature? Very useful for us. However I conservatively estimate we will cover about a third of our annual mileage in EV mode which even assuming a 50% rise in electricity costs later today, we will save at least £10/week against petrol. 
Philip - the additional sound proofing isn’t a rumour, it is fact. However it is much more sophisticated than just bunging additional sound proofing under the bonnet. The door glass is different to the HEV and is thicker sound absorbing (laminated) product. At motorway speeds the PHEV is quieter. At least to my ears. 
And I totally agree re a PHEV in Excel spec! We went for Dynamic Premium. 

[philip42h]

22 minutes ago, Flatcoat said:

In respect of ride I cannot say the PHEV is noticeably different however it is much, much quieter. We had the same dilemma over the specs and really wanted PVM however we also wanted the power of the PHEV for towing. There are other minor differences too, slightly smaller boot, no spare wheel however you can pre-heat or cool the PHEV cabin - not sure that is a HEV feature? Very useful for us. However I conservatively estimate we will cover about a third of our annual mileage in EV mode which even assuming a 50% rise in electricity costs later today, we will save at least £10/week against petrol. 
Philip - the additional sound proofing isn’t a rumour, it is fact. However it is much more sophisticated than just bunging additional sound proofing under the bonnet. The door glass is different to the HEV and is thicker sound absorbing (laminated) product. At motorway speeds the PHEV is quieter. At least to my ears. 
And I totally agree re a PHEV in Excel spec! We went for Dynamic Premium. 

I'm not convinced that the PHEV is smaller from a practical standpoint. I assume that you still have a flat load floor level with the 'lip', and suspect that the only volume you lose with the PHEV is the volume beneath the load floor? I'm not sure that it's a material difference either way.

There's no cabin preconditioning in the HEV, and no heat pump to make weird noises to do that. So it's a feature I neither have nor miss ...

At a saving of £10 per week it would take 1,000 weeks or nearly 20 years to pay back the price difference at the time I bought. I think that the price difference is down to about £4k now (?) so that it now takes only 400 weeks to pay back or about 7.5 years. The cost difference is still difficult to justify on purely economic terms. But as the OP suggests, that isn't the only consideration ...

[Roy124]

My EV Corolla starts the ICE when cold yo bring it up to  temp for the cruise and stop start mode. I guess the HEV RA behaves the same. 

Does the PHEV delay ICE start? 

 

 

[TonyHSD]

3 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

My EV Corolla starts the ICE when cold yo bring it up to  temp for the cruise and stop start mode. I guess the HEV RA behaves the same. 

Does the PHEV delay ICE start? 

 

 

If you have sufficient amount of Battery power your internal combustion engine will not start at all if you are in ev mode, the car has heat pump that will heat the cabin and heat from the engine is not needed. Phev lately been designed way better that first phev 10 years ago. , so basically when you charge your traction Battery you have a car that acts like full ev, and when your Battery is low then you have a car that acts like self charging hybrid, same as your Corolla, and yes in hybrid mode the engine would start to generate same heat and be ready to take over later when driving the car. 👍 

[Flatcoat]

Philip, you ignore the higher residual value of the PHEV. The last time I looked at the numbers the PHEV had a residual forecast that was well over £2k higher than the HEV. The weekly saving is for me and our use. Others may have more, or less. Our car is a private purchase - I would never have a company car again irrespective of tax benefits, nor would I run one through my business. Too much hassle. 

[philip42h]

6 minutes ago, Flatcoat said:

Philip, you ignore the higher residual value of the PHEV

I do ... after 20 years both cars will be worth nothing! 🙂

Or, yes, the whole economic equation is rather complicated. The higher cost of the PHEV means that it will depreciate rather more but may still be worth a bit more when you sell it. If I'd bought a PHEV at £10k over the cost of a HEV, I'd have lost around £6k at a stroke when Toyota reduced the price of the PHEV new.

We agree, that it is a complex and personal calculation.

More importantly, that is far from the only decision when it comes to purchasing a car - we simply buy want we want from the 'affordable' and available options at the time.

[Hayzee]

11 hours ago, Cyker said:

I just looked on their site and they still offer the 7.5p rate, albeit only for 4 hours between midnight and 4am.

However their standard rate varies - They say 14p on their site, but if I punch in my postcode it's 30p which is nearly double what I am paying at the moment  

Charging your car at the 30p rate would be nearly as expensive as public charging...!

Maybe the 14p to 30p rate is reflecting the increase in the energy cap being announced today?

[nlee]

11 hours ago, Hayzee said:

These low overnight rates don't appear to be available anymore to new contracts. For instance Octopus Energy EV charging rate for new contracts is 25p/kWh so when all the fixed rates start to unravel the costs per EV mile are looking less attractive.

That's not really true. I know a number of people from another group who have just signed up to the pink thing with eight legs. They have just increase the prices from 5p to 7.5p per kWh for the standard 4 hour window, or 8.5p for the 5 hour variable window for new customers or those renewing. The "day rates" have also increased.

There are a few misconceptions about EV tariffs, hopefully I can help explain....

They don't currently work for people on a good fixed rate deal. However, unless you have a good two year deal, most will be coming to an end shortly. Current fixed rate deals are around 40p upwards. They obviously have to account that costs are only going up so to guarantee these rates they need to cover themselves. We all know where the market is going currently.

The Octopus EV tariffs are not fixed rate, in that you can swop or leave anytime without penalty, but they give you a guaranteed rate for 12 months, so in effect they are. At the current day rate, that is better than any fixed rate they are offering so you are protected against any variable tariff price increases for your 12 months (for electricity, if you take gas with them you can chose any variable or fixed tariff separately)

Some people say the day rate is more expensive than the standard rate so their day time cost will increase significantly. These are generally priced to take account that your base usage is cheaper for 4 hours of the day, not just EV charging. For example using rounded figures, I pay 3p/kwh more than the standard rate for 20 hours and 18p/kwh less for 4 hours. So, ignoring EV charging, if you have a base load of 8kw per day it costs 20p extra for the 20 hours and I save 24p in the 4 hours, i.e. it more or less balances out. Also, by using delayed start timers on dishwasher, washing machine and tumble dryer so they run in the cheap period, this increases savings considerably. I use an app that compares my cost versus the standard tariff, when not charging the car and just putting the dishwasher on overnight, I save around 3-5% per day. When I charge the car, the saving is around 35-45%. This saving will increase significantly in April when the price cap increases because the standard rate will increase but my EV rate is guaranteed until November.  The standing charge is also 5.5p/day less which, although fairly small, is £20/year saved. 

It could be true that some people class the EV mileage as free. The app only shows the combined mpg which leads you to this. However, it costs me around 1.7p/mile on EV and 13.7p/mile on petrol. The app shows I have done 63% distance on EV, so give or take, on average it works out about 6.1p/mile, i.e a saving of 7.6p/mile, or 55% on fuel for my current usage. It would be more if I was commuting normally.

Assuming I paid £5000 more for a PHEV but hopefully will be worth £2000 more when selling, plus 2 years of extra RFL at £700, the additional investment is £3700. The saving on fuel for 20,000 miles p.a. over 3 years is £4560, so not a huge gain but that wasn't my only reason for going for a PHEV.

[Centaur]

Thanks again for all your thoughts on this.  Just to clarify, I would be buying the car privately and not as a company car.  I gave that up when my next company car was going to attract the top benefit-in-kind rate of 35%.  Put another way, over three years, I was going to be taxed on 105% of the car's list price!  It was cheaper to take the cash, buy my own and put the monthly tax savings in a piggy bank to pay for its future replacement.  At the current 7% rate (8% from April) for the PHEV it looks attractive but I wouldn't trust them not to load it back to a much higher rate in the near future.  Additionally, any reimbursement of the cost of fuel for company mileage has to be very carefully calculated.  It's not widely known but the Revenue has a nasty habit of looking at your fuel records and if they can find just one mile that they consider to be 'private mileage' or simply overclaimed, they will say that you have had the benefit of free fuel from your employer.  That attracts a benefit-in-kind rate of £24,600 or a charge of £9,840 per year for a 40% tax payer.  Being that they will typically come after you some time after the event, they could be going back for up to six previous tax years, plus the current one!  Then there are penalty charges on top of that.  If you are a good taxpayer, admit that you were wrong and meekly offer to pay up, they may let you off some or all of the penalty charges but not the interest - that's always charged on top!!!  That would blow a colossal hole in any company car benefit calculations - you have been warned...

Historically, I have always changed my car around every three years but I have kept my current car for far longer and run up a much higher mileage than ever before.  Were I to do the same with my next car, depreciation and future residual values would, therefore, be rather less of a consideration than reliability and future running costs.  The Toyota would appear to score well on that front, certainly over another Land Rover product.  However, being that I may keep the car for some time, I want to make sure that I make the right choice at the outset.  The (now) relatively small premium for the PHEV is, therefore, less important than picking the right model for me.  If it is, indeed, a quieter, more refined drive, then that may sway my decision irrespective of the economy differences.  On that note, the ability to charge from a simple 3-pin plug could be advantageous too, as the government will surely seek to start charging road fuel duty on electricity used for motoring in due course.  At the very least, they will want to increase the rate of VAT to the Standard rate of 20%, rather than the Domestic rate of 5%.  They have already insisted that all new wall boxes have separate meters to the regular domestic one in anticipation of this...

I will aim to get a decent test drive in a PHEV in order to gauge the relative merits of one for myself and will let you know how it goes.  The only other thorny issue after that would be the colour choice.  The PHEV has fewer and slightly different colour options to the HEV and the gloss black roof, bumpers and side mouldings probably influence that choice too.  The lighter colours clearly highlight the contrast but the darker ones much less so.  I want a change from my current grey car, so the options are red, white or blue.  Pure White may be nice but it's only Pearl White that is available, so I'm not so sure about that.  Obsidian Blue looks classy but is darker on the car than on screen, so it doesn't show the two-tone very well and may look dirty quite quickly.  Scarlet Red looks good in some of the reviews, (especially in the sunshine) shows off the two-tone well and matches the red highlights in the cabin but maybe looks a bit 'mid-life-crisis sporty'?  Colour choice is a very personal thing, so I'd want to see one of each before making a decision, but I'd be interested to know the opinions of those that have seen the colours on the car.

[ernieb]

If you arrange a test drive then make sure they charge the traction Battery absolutely no point in driving the car and it’s purely running in HEV mode.

On colour as you say it’s a personal choice, I test drove the blue and it was good but I’d already decided to opt for the Red/black roof combination.  The black roof has a blue flake so in the sun it looks really good.

[Flatcoat]

We were going to go for silver which I think looks classy against the gloss black roof and trim. However we saw one in red on the dealers forecourt and that was it! Same as Ernie’s but with the panoramic roof. By coincidence I parked next to a silver Excel with black roof t’other day and it looks very good so would not have been disappointed. 

[nlee]

@Centaur Clearly lots for you to think about. Some of it should be the pleasure of having the car you want and go with your gut.

If you are taking the cash, it's worth noting that with the PHEV, it is still classed as a 2.5L petrol for fuel allowance so is currently 22p/mile on the advisory rates. Even if your business journeys are greater than the EV range, you are still getting the first 50 at a very low rate (one of the hotels I regularly stay in has free chargers so I get 50 miles cheap and 50 miles free).

I went from a MY17 discovery sport to the RAV4 PHEV and don't regret a single thing. I've gone Obsidian Blue. You are right, in some light you might think it is black but the black highlights do stand out in good light. I'm pleased I went with it although I too like the photos of the Red that have been posted on here.

On wall chargers, get one now. The rules on limiting charge hours and potential for different tax rates won't apply to chargers installed before those changes come into force. Most current chargers only connect to the WiFi mainly for app control. If the rules applied now, I could just disconnect it from the WiFi and have it as a dumb charger.

[Centaur]

The solid red (although pearlescent) would not have been my first choice from the brochure but I have to say that it does look a great combination with the glossy black two-tone and would be a perfect match for the interior red highlights.  I didn't realise that the roof was anything other than gloss black, so I will have to take a closer look when I next see one.  Is the 'blue flake' just a feature of the Scarlet Flame or is that the same for all the Dynamic models?

I have seen the car in silver, as there is one nearby, and I would agree that it does also look a good combination with the two-tone but I just fancy getting a change from my current mid-grey metallic.  The Obsidian Blue would be my conservative choice but I really am taken with the Scarlet Flame!  Incidentally, what is it like to keep clean / not show road grime?

Thanks for the info about wall chargers too, Nigel.  I thought that the rules had already changed?  Do you know when they actually come into force and, therefore, how long I would have to look into this and get it organised?

[Flatcoat]

It keeps its look very well when grubby. Much More so than the blue. I had a run of silver cars for year after year. Mostly bought used so colour was secondary to other aspects. The Toyota red isn’t quite as rich as the red Mazda use (or come to that MG), I think of it as Raspberry red and very similar shade to an older Audi red I used to like. 

[nlee]

New regulations apply for all units sold after 30th June 2022. That doesn't mean any changes to how they operate come in then though and, in reality, unless taxation eventually comes into it, it won't make a great deal of difference as most uses avoid peak demand periods now.

The other consideration is the removal of the £350 grant I'm a couple of months but if you follow the thread on those currently exploring a free charger from Toyota, and see how that progresses, that might not be an issue.

[ernieb]

Nigel, sorry don’t know about the roof on the other colours, it’s distinct when the sun light catches the roof as you walk by but discrete enough not to be in you face. I’ve changed the wing mirror turn signal repeaters for ones that are sequential but dark so the whole mirror looks darker and I think that works well.

 

[Centaur]

It does look very good indeed.  I am travelling down to Dorset tomorrow, so will try and go via a few Toyota dealers on the way and see if I can spy any cars in the right colour!

[Hayzee]

5 hours ago, nlee said:

That's not really true. I know a number of people from another group who have just signed up to the pink thing with eight legs. They have just increase the prices from 5p to 7.5p per kWh for the standard 4 hour window, or 8.5p for the 5 hour variable window for new customers or those renewing. The "day rates" have also increased.

There are a few misconceptions about EV tariffs, hopefully I can help explain....

They don't currently work for people on a good fixed rate deal. However, unless you have a good two year deal, most will be coming to an end shortly. Current fixed rate deals are around 40p upwards. They obviously have to account that costs are only going up so to guarantee these rates they need to cover themselves. We all know where the market is going currently.

The Octopus EV tariffs are not fixed rate, in that you can swop or leave anytime without penalty, but they give you a guaranteed rate for 12 months, so in effect they are. At the current day rate, that is better than any fixed rate they are offering so you are protected against any variable tariff price increases for your 12 months (for electricity, if you take gas with them you can chose any variable or fixed tariff separately)

Some people say the day rate is more expensive than the standard rate so their day time cost will increase significantly. These are generally priced to take account that your base usage is cheaper for 4 hours of the day, not just EV charging. For example using rounded figures, I pay 3p/kwh more than the standard rate for 20 hours and 18p/kwh less for 4 hours. So, ignoring EV charging, if you have a base load of 8kw per day it costs 20p extra for the 20 hours and I save 24p in the 4 hours, i.e. it more or less balances out. Also, by using delayed start timers on dishwasher, washing machine and tumble dryer so they run in the cheap period, this increases savings considerably. I use an app that compares my cost versus the standard tariff, when not charging the car and just putting the dishwasher on overnight, I save around 3-5% per day. When I charge the car, the saving is around 35-45%. This saving will increase significantly in April when the price cap increases because the standard rate will increase but my EV rate is guaranteed until November.  The standing charge is also 5.5p/day less which, although fairly small, is £20/year saved. 

It could be true that some people class the EV mileage as free. The app only shows the combined mpg which leads you to this. However, it costs me around 1.7p/mile on EV and 13.7p/mile on petrol. The app shows I have done 63% distance on EV, so give or take, on average it works out about 6.1p/mile, i.e a saving of 7.6p/mile, or 55% on fuel for my current usage. It would be more if I was commuting normally.

Assuming I paid £5000 more for a PHEV but hopefully will be worth £2000 more when selling, plus 2 years of extra RFL at £700, the additional investment is £3700. The saving on fuel for 20,000 miles p.a. over 3 years is £4560, so not a huge gain but that wasn't my only reason for going for a PHEV.

Apologies, I was looking at a different utility company (same capital letter) 🥺

[Flatcoat]

Where did you source your sequential indicators? 

[ernieb]

A well know selling auction site.

https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/LED-Sequential-Dynamic-Indicators-For-Toyota-Rav-4-2019-Mirror-Turn-Signal-/265334505262?mkcid=16&mkevt=1&_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l6249&mkrid=710-127635-2958-0

there are a few video that go through the fitting process, I linked one on an earlier post, I also changed the puddle lights as I had the cover off, big difference.

 

[ernieb]

Video I used some of the others made hard work of getting the cover off…..

 

[Nick72]

On 2/3/2022 at 12:47 PM, Centaur said:

Thanks again for all your thoughts on this.  Just to clarify, I would be buying the car privately and not as a company car.  I gave that up when my next company car was going to attract the top benefit-in-kind rate of 35%.  Put another way, over three years, I was going to be taxed on 105% of the car's list price!  It was cheaper to take the cash, buy my own and put the monthly tax savings in a piggy bank to pay for its future replacement.  At the current 7% rate (8% from April) for the PHEV it looks attractive but I wouldn't trust them not to load it back to a much higher rate in the near future.  Additionally, any reimbursement of the cost of fuel for company mileage has to be very carefully calculated.  It's not widely known but the Revenue has a nasty habit of looking at your fuel records and if they can find just one mile that they consider to be 'private mileage' or simply overclaimed, they will say that you have had the benefit of free fuel from your employer.  That attracts a benefit-in-kind rate of £24,600 or a charge of £9,840 per year for a 40% tax payer.  Being that they will typically come after you some time after the event, they could be going back for up to six previous tax years, plus the current one!  Then there are penalty charges on top of that.  If you are a good taxpayer, admit that you were wrong and meekly offer to pay up, they may let you off some or all of the penalty charges but not the interest - that's always charged on top!!!  That would blow a colossal hole in any company car benefit calculations - you have been warned...

Historically, I have always changed my car around every three years but I have kept my current car for far longer and run up a much higher mileage than ever before.  Were I to do the same with my next car, depreciation and future residual values would, therefore, be rather less of a consideration than reliability and future running costs.  The Toyota would appear to score well on that front, certainly over another Land Rover product.  However, being that I may keep the car for some time, I want to make sure that I make the right choice at the outset.  The (now) relatively small premium for the PHEV is, therefore, less important than picking the right model for me.  If it is, indeed, a quieter, more refined drive, then that may sway my decision irrespective of the economy differences.  On that note, the ability to charge from a simple 3-pin plug could be advantageous too, as the government will surely seek to start charging road fuel duty on electricity used for motoring in due course.  At the very least, they will want to increase the rate of VAT to the Standard rate of 20%, rather than the Domestic rate of 5%.  They have already insisted that all new wall boxes have separate meters to the regular domestic one in anticipation of this...

I will aim to get a decent test drive in a PHEV in order to gauge the relative merits of one for myself and will let you know how it goes.  The only other thorny issue after that would be the colour choice.  The PHEV has fewer and slightly different colour options to the HEV and the gloss black roof, bumpers and side mouldings probably influence that choice too.  The lighter colours clearly highlight the contrast but the darker ones much less so.  I want a change from my current grey car, so the options are red, white or blue.  Pure White may be nice but it's only Pearl White that is available, so I'm not so sure about that.  Obsidian Blue looks classy but is darker on the car than on screen, so it doesn't show the two-tone very well and may look dirty quite quickly.  Scarlet Red looks good in some of the reviews, (especially in the sunshine) shows off the two-tone well and matches the red highlights in the cabin but maybe looks a bit 'mid-life-crisis sporty'?  Colour choice is a very personal thing, so I'd want to see one of each before making a decision, but I'd be interested to know the opinions of those that have seen the colours on the car.

Work takes care of my business trip fuel cost reimbursement. It's their problem from a tax man perspective. 

If they were reimbursing me for personal mileage then that will attract the tax mans attention.

For me I get insurance, breakdown, repair, servicing all covered and paid for by my business. No tax implications on me. Business sorts it all out. All I pay for for is personal fuel and a contribution from my salary for what is in essence a lease. So a 7pc BiK means I get to drive a car which is generally a third lower monthly cost than the same cost as a typical lease. And dont pay anything else. Hundreds of other execs in same position driving company cars for decades.

Whichever way I calculated it the company scheme worked out by far the most cost effective option (20k miles a year limit, which I only manage about 6k at the moment!). Lease, buy, whatever. I spent ages doing all the fixed and variable cost calcs and crossover points etc.

Only works for the good PHEVs and EVs.

One downside was that as the depreciation was unknown on the PHEV the company car folks we use bumped up the monthly cost because they need to recover that from me just as a new car buyer would lose that value. They assumed a devaluation similar to the RAV4 vanilla. But, slightly over the top figures used. I could have had a fully kitted up XC60 Recharge T8 R Design with proper boy racer wheels for roughly the same monthly cost (ok it was about 60 quid a month more), including factoring the higher BiK! Still, it did work out financially better overall.

[Centaur]

I got to have a look at most of the colours on actual RAV4s yesterday on my way down to Dorset.  Sadly, they didn't have a Scarlet Flare one, although they did have it on (I think) a Corolla.  It looked very nice in that, so it's certainly a top contender.

There are no dealers showing one in used stock on Toyota's website either.  Does anyone know of a dealer that may have a demonstrator in Scarlet Flare - preferably somewhere between Dorset and Rutland!.

[Flatcoat]

Sorry to OP for thread drift - Ernie, thanks for that info, much appreciated. I have also seen on a US forum or similar, a dynamic indicator replacement for the rears too, is it something you have looked at? 
Back to the OP, the info on the Toyota website is only as good as the dealers input. Bear in mind the Corolla is made in the UK so paint colours are likely to be different. Try searching Autitrader or Carwow used cars for a demo in the red.