Hybrid Battery Failure

[Catlover]

Very, very rare to read of Toyota hybrid Battery failure, but I just read of a hybrid Battery failure, not in a Toyota, but in a Mercedes.

4 years ago a guy from Leicester bought a 2014 Mercedes E-Class mild hybrid for £27,000 from a Mercedes main dealer. Now he has been told the hybrid Battery needs replacing and it going to cost him £15,000 excluding labour costs at £200 per hour. He has checked on Auto Trader and the 8 year old car value is £12,850. He is not happy a new hybrid battery will cost more than what the car is worth.

You Toyota owners, that includes me, should feel very happy that a Hybrid battery in a Toyota can, subject to an annual health check, have a warranty up to 15 year/100,000 miles. The Hybrid Health check is free if the car is serviced at a Toyota dealer, or currently circa £45 per year if you have the car serviced elsewhere.

Not sure what the cost of a new Toyota hybrid battery is but last time I checked it was about £1500 for a Prius. Individual cells can easily be replaced and there are places on the internet selling individual cells for approx £120.

[Stopeter44]

1 hour ago, Catlover said:

4 years ago a guy from Leicester bought a 2014 Mercedes E-Class mild hybrid for £27,000 from a Mercedes main dealer. Now he has been told the hybrid battery needs replacing and it going to cost him £15,000 excluding labour costs at £200 per hour.

Where did you get that info ?

[FROSTYBALLS]

It has been in the media in the UK. The independent dealer who services the car also has the same problem with their car. Example of media report: 

https://www.express.co.uk/life-style/cars/1556002/Mercedes-Benz-car-new-battery-price-Auto-Trader-Knighton-Leicester

[Catlover]

It was something on my phone that gives snippets of news from many sources. Just looking at some now from…..  BikeRadar, Daily Express, The Mirror, Lowestoft Journal.  I think the one about the Mercedes’ earlier just said Express.

[Catlover]

Whilst I am searching trying to find the search FB’s has done it for me. I was right thinking it was the Express.

[Bernard Foy]

Wow that’s a big letdown, and an expensive fix.

[Roy124]

On the face of it it is bad but we don't know the full story.  Did he seek assistance from Mercedes?  How much use had it been put to etc. 

My Mercedes 'died' when the cost of a suspension repair started to equal the value of the car.  I sold it to my garage who could do the repair for cost of materials only. 

Is a hybrid dead with a u/s Battery or does it become a simple ICE? 

[Rosgoe]

34 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

On the face of it it is bad but we don't know the full story.  Did he seek assistance from Mercedes?  How much use had it been put to etc. 

My Mercedes 'died' when the cost of a suspension repair started to equal the value of the car.  I sold it to my garage who could do the repair for cost of materials only. 

Is a hybrid dead with a u/s battery or does it become a simple ICE? 

I wondered that I assume as long as there is enough power in the traction Battery to start the engine it just becomes a ice or does the 12 volt Battery start the engine in a mild hybrid.

[Roy124]

I think someone said a dead Toyota Battery was dead Toyota 

 

[Rosgoe]

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj2097juun1AhVRfMAKHVJ_DzQQFnoECA8QAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.caranddriver.com%2Fresearch%2Fa32768969%2Fhybrid-battery%2F&usg=AOvVaw1k3lUlIh0oNsqOUyT9ntY0

most toyota owners probably know this anyway just thought it was interesting

[Catlover]

11 minutes ago, Rosgoe said:

https://www.google.co.uk/url?sa=t&rct=j&q=&esrc=s&source=web&cd=&ved=2ahUKEwj2097juun1AhVRfMAKHVJ_DzQQFnoECA8QAw&url=https%3A%2F%2Fwww.caranddriver.com%2Fresearch%2Fa32768969%2Fhybrid-battery%2F&usg=AOvVaw1k3lUlIh0oNsqOUyT9ntY0

most toyota owners probably know this anyway just thought it was interesting

It say hybrid batteries usually last 8 years/100000 miles, well Toyota batteries can be warranted up to 15 years/100000, Toyota have put confidence in their Battery and it is justified, I never read of a Battery failing, even In the 200000+ cars in the usa. Maybe individual cells gone but that’s it.

[AisinW]

Hybrid Battery in UK or western europe last much longer than say Florida, Arizona, or tropical countries.  The main cause is heat degradation and corrosion on the bushbar in humid weather. 

Back when I was in Florida, 2nd gen Prius only last in average 10-12 years. Not so much about mileage.  Mine died at 230k miles  11 years because I do not have garage.  I put refurbished Battery for $800 with 1 year warranty and sell it for $3000. 

I called Toyota Frankfurt dealership, they quoted me €2350 to replace Auris whybrid Battery, all included but I have to give my old battery to them. It was in 2019, but my car is fine. Just curious.

With that in mind, €2350 makes sense for 15 years/200k miles old car with the resale value may be still higher than €3000.  Probably by that time, we will have 3rd party refurbished battery that may be installed for less than €1000. 

[AisinW]

I just came accross Toyota part for hybrid Battery in Germany https://japanersatzteile.de/epages/77dfc38f-d96f-46a3-a239-427e75e452a3.sf/de_DE/?ObjectID=486649&ViewAction=FacetedSearchProducts&SearchString=G9510-12020  

It cost total of €2.044,95 a for the hybrid Battery unit alone. I am not sure how much we can sell the used dead Battery because I believe some refurbisher will buy it for few hundreeds €.  Overall when the time come, it is not that hard to replace the whole unit. Only proper knowledge and certified gloves to remove and reinstall the new hybrid battery.  I saw it once on my Prius 06, it takes no more than 30 minutes with power tools and mostly 12 and 14mm socket.    Once the Safety plug is removed, the hybrid battery is harmless as long as we do not dismantel the battery.  It is 207 V, slightly less than our outlet in the house.  If we worked with our home wiring before, working with hybrid battery is actually safer as long as we do not open it.  DC current will never flow unless we touch both + and - at the same time.   At our house, it is AC, we can still get electric shock even with only 1 hot wire, because it will flow to our body to the ground. 

[AisinW]

22 hours ago, Catlover said:

It say hybrid batteries usually last 8 years/100000 miles, well Toyota batteries can be warranted up to 15 years/100000, Toyota have put confidence in their battery and it is justified, I never read of a battery failing, even In the 200000+ cars in the usa. Maybe individual cells gone but that’s it.

This article has no clue and experience with Toyota hybrid.  100k miles is just brake in in most Prius or hybird in the past.  Generally speaking, 200k miles/10 years are the minimum lifespan as long as the car is regularly driven.  If it is parked for months, it may be broken from undercharged for so long. We need to turn the car on every 2 months at least 30 minutes if it is not driven at all. 

Comparing Daimler and Toyota is never right. One makes disposable car, the other one makes Warzone cars.  8 years for hybrid benz makes sense.

[TonyHSD]

201k miles, 11 years and still going strong with its original batteries.

I had purchased an app recently to do some testing on the Battery after I had a hybrid system malfunction warning but either I did not run it correctly or the app didn’t work that time properly first attempt showed me Battery health 198% 😂, second showed me 41% and said that my Battery is weak and needs replacement soon. I will test again when weather warms up as it’s asking for higher battery temp, checking the individual cells voltage seems very equal and I haven’t noticed any abnormal behaviour, I can also compare to my previous Priuses gen 3 and it seems exactly the same performance. So far so good, battery cooling fan cleaned once two years ago and was not dirty at all, just a bit of fine dust on the fins. 👍 I hope for another 2 years of service. 🤞

[AisinW]

Don't  trust any software that claim about HV Battery. They give you random results including Dr. PRIUS.   The easiest and more accurate way is just check the free version of Dr. PRIUS APP with OBD2 ELM327 conpatible.  Voltage variance and internal resistance alone is enough.   The error code will show upbif the voltage variance is more than 1 V.  Typically it lasts minimal 15 years in UK/Ireland, turn the AC on to cool the Battery in summer and reduce humidity in winter that can cause corrosion on the bus bar. You can buy new bus bar from Toyota for about €200. If you have one module low voltage and at the same time high internal resistance at that particular module, very likely corrosion on the bus bar is the cause. Otherwise, we may need a new Battery module or the whole set may be easier, cost about €2000, parts only. €2350 installed. 

[TonyHSD]

Thanks, 

I measured the Battery and the results are perfect, very minimal cell deviation 👍 Battery is always dry and cool, and no moisture in the car and boot. 👍

[Gerg]

3 hours ago, AisinW said:

You can buy new bus bar from Toyota for about €200.

Do you have any favoured products that you think would help prevent the bus bar corrosion in the longer term?

[AisinW]

Nothing special. Just turn the AC on in both winter and summer. It keeps the moisture low and cool the Battery well.  Many does not know that in hybrid and cheap EV, AC is part of cooling system becUse it is cooled by air from the cabin.  Close the windows and sunroof in salty area. 

More importantly, clean the car regularly, especually from salt in winter from our shoes

[TonyHSD]

2 hours ago, Gerg said:

Do you have any favoured products that you think would help prevent the bus bar corrosion in the longer term?

Keeping clean interior and ventilated, no need to be always ac on, even opposite, winter times ac can introduce more moisture than help prevent it. Summer time when 20 C° or more then ac is good to have. Cleaning fan filter or fan is must have and regular checks under floor spare wheel area for water ingress if you have gen 3 hybrids with Battery located in boot. I have done all that also placed a moisture absorption bag next to the spare wheel just in case. I have another dehumidifier in the cabin too, placed in rear door card., and yes does collect water, I change that every now and then. That’s pretty much all. 

[Red_Corolla]

3 hours ago, Gerg said:

Do you have any favoured products that you think would help prevent the bus bar corrosion in the longer term?

Yes, if you want to coat the terminals, there is a product called ACF-50 that is widely used in the aviation and haulage industries for preserving electrical contacts. It's expensive but very effective. Comes in aerosols or 1 litre bottles. 

Having said that, do not try to access or tamper with the hybrid system electrical connections unless you know what you are doing.

[AisinW]

If you see the schematic of the HVAC system in Toyota, it has humidity sensor and the AC is actually functioning as dehumidifier in winter.  As we turn the heater  on, we breath and add humidity, the ac evaporator is cold and condense the water.  Yes, we need the AC to be on in winter to reduce the  humidity and purge it to the drain. In summer it is obvious how AC reduce humidity.  The HVAC in post 2004 cars are smart, if it has climate control, it adjust humidity and temperature too using both AC and heater at the same time. The AC is at the front of the air intake in the HVAC box. The air pass the AC first, moisture is removed and then flow to the heater. 

You do not need special dehumidifier if you drive the car. If it is in garage and it was wet before from leak or any water spill, dehumidifier may be needed. 

I know 2nd gen Prius was notorious for water leaks from crack roof near the hatch. I put JB weld on it and it holds well for many years until i sold it. Not sure about  Auris . So far I do not have problems with water leak.  I do have problem with fogging on the windows if the AC is off in winter in recirculation moxe. The windshield fogging is easy to deal with by pressing defogger but not the windows. 

 

[AisinW]

Just for note,  the AC will rarely turn on if we use outside cold air/non re-circulation mode.  Outside cold air humidity is far less thaan inside cabin and practically will take the moisture away too.  I often use recirculation mode because the stinky smell of other car exhaust especially Diesel cars. 

[Popama]

Whenever it rains or snows the AC is not able to keep the fog away from the windscreen and front windows.
When it rains I have to use the front defogging feature intermittently or disable AC recirculation for the whole trip. When it snows it is even worse.
 

I am starting to think this might have to do with my replacement of the factory pollen filter with an active carbon version.

Moreover I only recently tested the central rear air vent while the AC heating was on and I noticed the air being blown is cold. I always assumed it is supposed to send back the same temperature as in the front.

 

[Stopeter44]

4 minutes ago, Popama said:

Whenever it rains or snows the AC is not able to keep the fog away from the windscreen and front windows.
When it rains I have to use the front defogging feature intermittently or disable AC recirculation for the whole trip. When it snows it is even worse.

Are you indicating that you use recirculation mode most of the time ? I have the car decide, i.e. in the parameters in one of the setup screens you can choose to have the car switch between recirculation and outside. Generally, without AC and with recirculation the windows will mist quicker, when cold (rain and/or snow).

In my old car, I ran AC all the time and generally with exterior air. I'm still deciding with the Yaris, but there are other factors to consider like moisture build up in the AC system, so I am coming around to using AC like I did on my old car, but with the auto mode activated.