Not starting when hot.

[colin.o]

Hi, my 2004rav4 d4d has had this old problem for the last few months. Tried all the things mentioned in previous posts but in the end replaced the starter motor with a new one to original spec. From euro parts. Still got the same problem . Took it to a specialist computer diagnostic company ,they said only thing they could find was slow cranking speed. Remembered a previous post upgrading starter motor to LRS01952 2.2KW STARTER overcoming the problem. So I have bought a second hand one from breakers, but on fitting noticed it has 9 teeth on the cog and the 1.4 KW STARTER has 10 teeth , now confused can anyone tell me which is correct ? 

[RAV4-D4D]

I'm afraid I can't answer the teeth question. However, if you've fitted a new 1.4KW motor and it hasn't helped the I doubt a 2.2KW one will. If the old starter was faulty replacing it with a 1.4KW should fix the problem, after all that's what it's been using for the last 17+ years so a 2.2KW isn't really required.

 

What things have you tried?

When you say it doesn't start what exactly does it do, eg does it turn over or does it not even do that?

if you had to guess, after how many minutes does the car need to be driven in order for the problem to appear?

 

[colin.o]

There are lots of posts from way back on this problem , have remade all Battery connections, Battery, fuel filter, starter motor. Diagnostic chap said it’s cranking at about 250 rpm and usually would expect it to be 300. A 20 minute run will bring on the fault and a15 minute rest will correct it . Engine turns over but jumps about but won’t start. Previous post 2014 ish chap fitted bigger starter and as he said it overcomes the problem but obviously doesn’t cure it. Can drive 120 miles non stop no problem but if you stop for diesel half way it won’t restart for 15 mins. It has done 175000 miles with no problems and just gone through mot with no advisories. 

[RAV4-D4D]

Ok, sounds like you've tried a lot of the usual items but a few thoughts in no particular order:

1) I know you have looked at the Battery connections but I would start by checking them all again to make absolutely sure that both earth cables have a really good connection between the Battery > chassis > engine.

2) If you have jump leads you could try connecting the negative from the Battery directly to the engine and seeing if that helps, if it does then you know the earth connections are bad.

3) Have you tried jump starting the car when it's hot to see if that helps? I don't think it's your battery at fault but useful to know if giving it more oomph helps.

4) Try cleaning the positive connection going into the starter motor

5) Fit your 2.2KW motor (subject to confirming it's the right one), since you've bought it you may as well try it.

 

[colin.o]

Yes to all , diagnostic guy tried jumping with another brand new Battery.

[Cyker]

What engine does it have?

 

If it's the diesel 2.0L 1CD-FTV, they have a known issue with the starter motor getting increasingly unable to crank properly when the engine is hot, as they get older.

There is a TSB for it for other cars (Mainly the Corolla Verso and Avensis), but it does affect other models with the same engine too.

Usually fitting a revised Toyota one (Which, annoyingly, has the same part number, so there's no easy way to tell if the part is the revised one or not) fixes the problem.

[colin.o]

Yes , a guy way back fitted this 2.2 kw motor an overcame the problem. But the one I have bought has 9 teeth.  The direct replacement says 9/10 teeth. Bit ambiguous 

[Red_Corolla]

Does it still bump start OK when hot?

I understand there's a known issue with the starters, but it's already been replaced once and it could turn into a bit of a rabbit hole unless all possibilities are considered.

If the cranking performance is still suspect but cold starts are working fine, then it would seem that the obvious thing to do is compare cold Vs hot cranking performance (rpm and Battery voltage). Get the diagnostic bloke to do some oscilloscope waveforms and see how they measure up against one another, then you can either pursue the starter further or rule it out as a root cause.

Also get him to measure the volt drop across the power connections - battery  positive to starter positive and Battery negative to starter casing. Both should be less than 0.2v. If you have a bad connection then a bigger starter might well cure the symptoms, but it would be a rather expensive alternative to cleaning the terminals. Find out exactly what's going on before changing any parts.

[colin.o]

Yes done all that and even measured the volt drop over length of starter cable. All good

[Roy124]

I hesitate to suggest this but how about fuel flow? 

Might there be a vapour lock? 

[Cyker]

The thing is if it was replaced with a salvage one chances are it has the same problem as the original as it won't have the fixes in the revised part.

My bro had the problem in his 2.0D4D Corolla and changed the Battery twice and wasted money on diagnostics which didn't find any obvious cause until he got the revised starter motor and it was fine for the rest of the time he owned it.

That said I have also heard of people in this forum refurbishing them with new brushes etc. which seemed to fix them too (At least I've not seen any of them come back saying it died again!)

Don't know the specifics of the starter you bought - does it have a part number on it?

9 teeth vs 10 teeth is something beyond me; Does it even fit??

[colin.o]

Yes there was a post on this forum still from about 2014. And he fitted this 2.2 kw starter and it overrode what ever the problem is. I fitted a new 1.4 KW Lucas starter but still had same problem ,so remembering the earlier post bought a second hand 2.2 KW But having received it noticed that it only had 9 teeth, so my question was if this would damage flywheel ? 

[colin.o]

It is physically bigger but does fit 

[colin.o]

LRS 01591

[colin.o]

Hi , thanks for your comments on this post , have gone ahead an fitted 2.2 kw starter, engine started ok . Will see over time if this cures hot starting issue. Looked up Toyota starter motor a few months back seem to remember it was £700. Will be pleased if my £30 scrappy does the job ! 

[colin.o]

An update on this , been on half a dozen longer journeys this last week and so far no problems ,tried re starting after each leg of trips and started easily each time.