2022 Rav 4 detachable towbar height problem

[JanneG]

I've just tried to hitch my 12 year old trailer to my brand new Rav4 which came with a factory fitted detachable towbar. It turns out the centre of the tow ball is ~50cm above the ground and the front wheels of my double axle trailer are off the ground by ~ 4cm! I did not have any problems with my land rovers . I've read that The EC Directive 94/20/EC (The standard that all towbars are designed to) states that the tow ball height should be'between 350 and 420mm from the ground with the vehicle in a 'laden' state'. so I'm not sure how the Toyota towbar complies as the car & trailer would need to be massively loaded to lower the back of the car to be within the specification. Any insights/clarification/suggestions are most welcome.Thanks!

[Flatcoat]

I spoke with a RAV caravan tower before ordering mine and this wasn’t mentioned as being an issue. In fact he thought it one of the better tow cars he had owned so much so he had ordered another. Have you tried any loading to see what happens? I must admit I haven’t hitched up my caravan as a test yet but I may do so given your situation. 

[JanneG]

3 hours ago, Flatcoat said:

I spoke with a RAV caravan tower before ordering mine and this wasn’t mentioned as being an issue. In fact he thought it one of the better tow cars he had owned so much so he had ordered another. Have you tried any loading to see what happens? I must admit I haven’t hitched up my caravan as a test yet but I may do so given your situation. 

I've stood on the trailer frame nose just behind the hitch/towball and it hardly moved down at all ... and I weigh ~80kg which is the nose loading limit. The paperwork says mine is a RAV4 vertical detachable towbar type 6281 (as ordered on the toyota RAV4 configurator website ) so the suspicion is that some parts error has occured when installed at the factory ( which seems unlikely!). 

[Flatcoat]

The nose weight limit is actually 70kg…. I will try mine as soon as I get chance to go to the storage yard. 

[JanneG]

fyi, If I’m understanding this document correctly the load for the vertical detachable tow bar is 80kg

 
 

I also found this on https://mag.toyota.co.uk/toyota-towing-capacities/comment-page-1/#comments.
ToyotaUKsays:

31 August 2021 at 11:50 am

Hi Ian,
The vertical load for the detachable vertical 13 pin tow bar is 80kg.
Please don’t hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions.
Thanks.
 

I can adjust the nose weight but the tow ball height is still an interesting problem. 

[1928KH]

Janne, I don't know which RAV4 model you have, but assuming you have a MyT account, you can download the manual for your car.

The online manual is much more comprehensive version than the printed manual supplied with the car.

In MyT navigate to My Vehicles, click on Owned, click on the picture of your vehicle, scroll down to Owner's Manual, click on that and from there download your manual.

Once you've opened the manual navigate towards the end on the document where you will find an alphabetical index (page 505 in mine) look for Trailer Towing (pages 189,190 in mine). Go to page 190 (or your equivalent) and read from there onwards.

A few pages down you will come to some diagrams showing the dimensions of the tow-bar fixing and it's position in relation to the vehicle and the ground. The dimension of interest here in 'E' which shows the centre of the ball being 394mm (15.5") above the ground. This is obviously at odds with yours.

It may be a good idea to print the relevant pages and take them to your dealer and seek their advice.

I'm typing all this having taken delivery of my Design HEV yesterday, complete with removable tow-bar! I've fitted it to see how it works but haven't measured the ground to ball dimension - I'll do it tomorrow and come back to you.

We have a single axle caravan so it may not be an issue for us, but we shall see.

You appear to have the same one as us - 80kg noseweight.

GDB

[Marcusthehat]

We also got the detatchable towbar and whilst I never measured the hitch/towball heights, I  have hooked on a new 3500Kg twin axle Dale Kane trailer, seeing nowt amiss height wise while doing so and  and towed it without fuss some 50 odd miles at 40-50 mph ish. N.B. Not loaded to 3500Kg.

Marcus

[Flatcoat]

1 hour ago, JanneG said:

fyi, If I’m understanding this document correctly the load for the vertical detachable tow bar is 80kg

 
 

I also found this on https://mag.toyota.co.uk/toyota-towing-capacities/comment-page-1/#comments.
ToyotaUKsays:

31 August 2021 at 11:50 am

Hi Ian,
The vertical load for the detachable vertical 13 pin tow bar is 80kg.
Please don’t hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions.
Thanks.
 

I can adjust the nose weight but the tow ball height is still an interesting problem. 

I will try and find it however when I asked the question it was confirmed as 70kg. Also stated elsewhere. 

[JanneG]

11 hours ago, 1928KH said:

Janne, I don't know which RAV4 model you have, but assuming you have a MyT account, you can download the manual for your car.

The online manual is much more comprehensive version than the printed manual supplied with the car.

In MyT navigate to My Vehicles, click on Owned, click on the picture of your vehicle, scroll down to Owner's Manual, click on that and from there download your manual.

Once you've opened the manual navigate towards the end on the document where you will find an alphabetical index (page 505 in mine) look for Trailer Towing (pages 189,190 in mine). Go to page 190 (or your equivalent) and read from there onwards.

A few pages down you will come to some diagrams showing the dimensions of the tow-bar fixing and it's position in relation to the vehicle and the ground. The dimension of interest here in 'E' which shows the centre of the ball being 394mm (15.5") above the ground. This is obviously at odds with yours.

It may be a good idea to print the relevant pages and take them to your dealer and seek their advice.

I'm typing all this having taken delivery of my Design HEV yesterday, complete with removable tow-bar! I've fitted it to see how it works but haven't measured the ground to ball dimension - I'll do it tomorrow and come back to you.

We have a single axle caravan so it may not be an issue for us, but we shall see.

You appear to have the same one as us - 80kg noseweight.

GDB

Thank you 1928H - very useful advice. I've updated my profile to show I have the 2021 Excel AWD variant ( bought AWD specifically for use as a tow car). I have checked MyT online and in my manual (in my case on p.287) it confirms the 394mm  'E' dimension - see images. My dealer has raised a case with Toyota HQ and I await feedback. Many Thanks.

  .

[1928KH]

Hi Janne, I've just been down to our caravan and hitched up to check all the electrics etc are working as they should. All OK.

The height, ground level to centre of ball on ours is 470mm. I took a photo to show that our single axle caravan sits quite OK. I'll post it when I'm back home.

However, I would welcome it if you could share any feedback from Toyota with us. It occurs to me that a 'less high' arm would solve the issue.

GDB

[1928KH]

Right, back home now. Photo here to show (a) dismal weather and (b) the caravan attached to the car. The photo may look a little odd as it's actually 2 photos stitched together in order to include both car and caravan.

 

As you can see the caravan sits quite level. Until I have the caravan at home I can't check what the actual nose-weight is but it's the same as it's been for the last 9 years and it hasn't ever been an issue.

[Flatcoat]

On 3/2/2022 at 8:45 PM, JanneG said:

fyi, If I’m understanding this document correctly the load for the vertical detachable tow bar is 80kg

 
 

I also found this on https://mag.toyota.co.uk/toyota-towing-capacities/comment-page-1/#comments.
ToyotaUKsays:

31 August 2021 at 11:50 am

Hi Ian,
The vertical load for the detachable vertical 13 pin tow bar is 80kg.
Please don’t hesitate to contact us if you have any further questions.
Thanks.
 

I can adjust the nose weight but the tow ball height is still an interesting problem. 

While looking for something else I did note The certificate of conformity clearly states the nose weight limit is 70kg. I cannot imagine why a higher figure is also referred to. It is very confusing for any inexperienced towers especially. 

[Marcusthehat]

Checked mine today, empty on level concrete. 450mm/18" to the centre of the ball.

[Centaur]

On 3/2/2022 at 10:05 PM, Marcusthehat said:

We also got the detatchable towbar and whilst I never measured the hitch/towball heights, I  have hooked on a new 3500Kg twin axle Dale Kane trailer, seeing nowt amiss height wise while doing so and  and towed it without fuss some 50 odd miles at 40-50 mph ish. N.B. Not loaded to 3500Kg.

Marcus

I'm assuming that you are aware but I will point out for the benefit of others, that towing a trailer (unladen or not) that has a gross weight above the towing capacity of your vehicle is a contravention of the Construction and Use Regulations.  It makes no difference that the trailer may only weigh, say, 900kg unladen and is well below the vehicle's towing limit.  Simply, if the trailer's plate states that its gross weight (unladen weight, plus maximum load) is above the maximum towing limit of the car, then you are breaking the law.  If you were to get stopped, or were to be involved in an accident, whilst towing a trailer plated as 3,500kg, you could be in a lot of hot water!

[Flatcoat]

7 hours ago, Centaur said:

I'm assuming that you are aware but I will point out for the benefit of others, that towing a trailer (unladen or not) that has a gross weight above the towing capacity of your vehicle is a contravention of the Construction and Use Regulations.  It makes no difference that the trailer may only weigh, say, 900kg unladen and is well below the vehicle's towing limit.  Simply, if the trailer's plate states that its gross weight (unladen weight, plus maximum load) is above the maximum towing limit of the car, then you are breaking the law.  If you were to get stopped, or were to be involved in an accident, whilst towing a trailer plated as 3,500kg, you could be in a lot of hot water!

Please point to that legislation. 

[Marcusthehat]

10 hours ago, Centaur said:

I'm assuming that you are aware but I will point out for the benefit of others, that towing a trailer (unladen or not) that has a gross weight above the towing capacity of your vehicle is a contravention of the Construction and Use Regulations.  It makes no difference that the trailer may only weigh, say, 900kg unladen and is well below the vehicle's towing limit.  Simply, if the trailer's plate states that its gross weight (unladen weight, plus maximum load) is above the maximum towing limit of the car, then you are breaking the law.  If you were to get stopped, or were to be involved in an accident, whilst towing a trailer plated as 3,500kg, you could be in a lot of hot water!

Oddly enough, at least 10 years ago, I checked and double checked and triple checked. And this was NOT the case. Oddly enough. It is the ACTUAL weight of the trailer that matters, in the eyes of the law.

Btw, I disposed of a lovely easy to tow but unbraked twin axle trailer, to purchase  this new 3500Kg fully legal trailer at some considerable cost.

The bloke that acquiredmy old trailer did not even replace the stupidly dozed tyres, before hitting the road with it, on a semi commercial basis. 

I also bought the 3500Kg spec because I have a 290GD Steyr Daimler Puch that is rated to tow the 3500Kg.

Though I might treat myself to a lovely wee 1500Kg/2000Kg Benderup or similar as well.

Cheers,

Mth

 

 

[Centaur]

I will try and find a link to the actual legislation.  It is, indeed, very complicated and even many traffic officers seem unaware of half of the detail.  I used to tow a lot of heavy trailers, boats and caravans, so I wanted to be sure of the rules to avoid just such confusion were I to get stopped.  The M5 in the summer was a hot place to get stopped and checked over in the summer.  If you rolled in to a service area with cold brake hubs, they would even assume that your brakes were inoperative and try and clobber you for that!  I've no idea why they thought that the brakes should be hot after long run on the motorway and letting the outfit coast into a service station but there you go...

Nevertheless, I assume that the legislation was drawn that way (although for me it was a while ago, so it may have changed and I could now be completely incorrect?) because it would be impossible to check the actual load without a weighbridge.  I passed my test well before the 1998 cut-off, so I get the "+E" (for towing heavy trailers) on my license, plus a few extra categories but anyone younger has to take a separate test or be limited as to what they can drive and / or tow.  Amongst other things, I am a qualified Mountain Leader (ML) and help out with DofE trips at my kids old school.  There are two identical types of minibus, some with 15 seats, some with 17.  The only real difference with the 17 seaters is that their plated GVW is slightly higher but, crucially, that means that they are over a threshold where you need to have taken a separate test to drive them.  Unladen, they weigh just the same.  It's the same principle as plated weights on trailers, so I doubt that the rules have changed but I stand to be corrected and apologise in advance if I'm wrong!

[Flatcoat]

1 hour ago, Marcusthehat said:

Oddly enough, at least 10 years ago, I checked and double checked and triple checked. And this was NOT the case. Oddly enough. It is the ACTUAL weight of the trailer that matters, in the eyes of the law.

Btw, I disposed of a lovely easy to tow but unbraked twin axle trailer, to purchase  this new 3500Kg fully legal trailer at some considerable cost.

The bloke that acquiredmy old trailer did not even replace the stupidly dozed tyres, before hitting the road with it, on a semi commercial basis. 

I also bought the 3500Kg spec because I have a 290GD Steyr Daimler Puch that is rated to tow the 3500Kg.

Though I might treat myself to a lovely wee 1500Kg/2000Kg Benderup or similar as well.

Cheers,

Mth

 

 

Which is my understanding- and the B+E license requirements have just changed, no longer required for over 3500kg. 

[Centaur]

Okay, there is a subtle difference from what you are allowed to tow for the purposes of your licence and what your car is allowed to tow for the purposes of the Constuction & Use Regulations.  It's possible that you may be able to tow an unladen trailer that is within your car's towing limit but that does has a higher MAM?  I haven't found anything else that refers to anything other than the MAM of the trailer but will give it a bit more research.

With regard to what you are allowed to tow for the purposes of your driving licence, I found this on an internet search:

https://gotowing.co.uk/towing-laws/

The 'Are You Towing Legally' guide is clear that it is the gross weight of the trailer that is the key point, not what it actually weighs even if it's unladen (empty).  Whilst it's a different argument to the specifics of the vehicle's towing limit, is still a point worth making:

Quote

 

* GROSS Weight of the vehicle and trailer is the max both can possibly  weigh – NOT WHAT THE WEIGHT OF VEHICLE AND TRAILER IS AT ANY TIME.

For example if the weight of your vehicle is 1700kg and your trailer with its load is 1400kg you do not have a gross weight of 3100kg – it is the combined gross weights of both car and trailer that matters.

You need to know the gross weight of your vehicle and your trailer.

For Example : Our Landrover freelander weighs 2000kg, but has a gross weight of 2600kg. The trailer we use weighs 650kg but has a gross weight of 2700kg.

Our gross weight is therefore ALWAYS 5300kg – even when towing the  trailer when it’s empty.  BEWARE THIS IS THE MOST COMMON MISTAKE MADE WHEN BELIEVING YOU ARE TOWING LEGALLY.

 

 

[Marcusthehat]

Well, yes, it is always the "plated" weight of the towing vehicle that counts, whether it is loaded, unlosded, light or empty.

But trailers are different.

Oddly enough.

[Centaur]

Yup, you were right on this and I was wrong - guilty as charged 🙄

Speaking to an old colleague, he said that for license purposes it's all down to plated weights but for driving purposes it's all down to the actual weight of the trailer.  However, apparently we always used to ensure that a trailer's gross weight was within the towing limit of the tow vehicle not because we were obliged to but for pragmatic reasons - it simply avoided the inevitable hassle if you were stopped.  Many enforcement officers simply did not understand the rules and those that did could still cause an issue if they had concerns that the actual trailer weight was too much for the tow vehicle.  It's fairly obvious if a trailer is overloaded but, if it's well within its capacity, it's all down to the officer's opinion as to whether it's likely to be within the tow vehicle's towing limit.  The gross weight is stamped on the plate but not necessarily its unladen weight, so an officer's assessment of what the trailer weighed, plus any load, was all guesswork.  if a uniformed officer told you that he thought that the outfit was unroadworthy and directed you not to drive it, then you were snookered whether or not he was right or wrong.  It was a situation that was simply better avoided.

[Centaur]

Back to the OP's original topic, I once had a car that seemed to have a higher than usual towball height - a Volvo XC90 I think?  It didn't matter much with a single-axle trailer, although effectively jacking it up could potentially risk scraping a long rear overhang on the ground.  However, with a twin-axle trailer, the natural balance of the trailer would be upset, as it would take weight off the front axle and add weight to both the rear axle and the tow hitch.

My car had self-levelling rear suspension too, so the towball height would remain static, regardless of the load.  Hitching up a heavy twin-axle trailer would quickly overload the nose weight, unless weight was shifted towards the rear of the trailer.  That cured the nose weight problem but it certainly isn't an ideal solution in terms of balance, axle weights or stability.

I would expect, therefore, that the RAV4's relatively modest nose weight limit could become overloaded quite quickly with just a small increase in towball height.  If the OP's towball height is indeed 500mm, it will be interesting to hear both the dealer's and Toyota's thoughts on this.

[JanneG]

Centaur - Thanks for your insights. fyi, I contacted the Dutch manufacturer (Brink) of the tow bar who said 50cm seemed high but as it was a Toyota factory fit item they could not assist and recommended that I should go via the dealer re specification etc so the dealer raised a ‘compass’ case with Toyota last Wednesday. I’ve been told by my local Toyota service garage that they would expect an answer to a ‘compass’ query within 24~48 hours but I’ve not had any response from the dealer to date. I’ll let you know what happens. 

[ernieb]

That's the problem with swan neck tow systems, back in the day with the old bolt on I'd use a drop plate.

[Centaur]

Just out of curiosity, I measured the towball height of the detachable towbar for my Land Rover Discovery 4 earlier - it came out at around 420mm, so at the upper end of what Janne said is written in the EC Directive.  Incidentally, the Discovery has self-levelling suspension too, so that height won't change when it's loaded either.

I never noticed a problem when hitching a twin-axle trailer with that but it does have a 130kg nose weight limit, so it would be less sensitive to towball height anyway.