BZ4X WLTP ranges annouced

[Cyker]

It's basically lying sorry I mean marketting.

The big advantage of solid state cells is they won't have a liquid electrolyte that will boil under high stress. This means you can run the cells far hotter than you can with liquid cells without the liquid part exploding (Because it isn't there); That's pretty much it.

The downside is they're harder to manufacture and will have lower energy density (Although this can be countered by packing more cells in as you can do away with pesky bulky things like cooling channels and pipework)

But the thing is, having solid-state batteries isn't going to make e.g. a 200kW charger charge any faster than 200kW. We're already nearing the practical limit of charger output with the upcoming chargers - They already need to equip them with extremely bulky cables and cooling jackets and they waste a significant portion of energy as heat because stuffing such high levels of current down a cable is always going to be very lossy.

The only way out is to switch to higher voltage charging (e.g. 800v+), but that brings compatibility problems and will require redesigned connectors as we start to get into voltages that can jump bigger gaps.

But TBH charging speed is a bit of a red herring IMHO. EVs will never be able to 'charge' as fast as filling a fuel tank, and the obsession with chasing that is not worth it - They should play to the strengths of an EV, not its weaknesses.

EV ownership requires a fundamental change in the mindset of how the vehicle is operated - Long distance EV journeys require you to factor in the charging as part of rest stops in the journey anyway, and IMHO we've already got fast enough chargers for that.

 

Personally, my wishlist is more for longevity (None of this 10-20% loss in 5-10 years is acceptable stupidness) and recyclability (Current packs are practically unrecyclable), but especially energy density - Current batteries are something like 2 orders of magnitude worse energy density than liquid fuels - Sure petrol/diesel is horribly efficient by comparison, with the maximum theoretical efficiency being 50% vs the 99% of electrics, but when you're 2 orders of magnitude off it's just never going to have the same level of practicality, and the compromises are for the most part not something I'm willing to accept as they stand. (Hence why I have a Mk4 Yaris and not e.g. a Zoe!)

 

[swoop5511]

43 minutes ago, Cyker said:

Personally, my wishlist is more for longevity (None of this 10-20% loss in 5-10 years is acceptable stupidness) and recyclability (Current packs are practically unrecyclable), but especially energy density - Current batteries are something like 2 orders of magnitude worse energy density than liquid fuels - Sure petrol/diesel is horribly efficient by comparison, with the maximum theoretical efficiency being 50% vs the 99% of electrics, but when you're 2 orders of magnitude off it's just never going to have the same level of practicality, and the compromises are for the most part not something I'm willing to accept as they stand. (Hence why I have a Mk4 Yaris and not e.g. a Zoe!)

 

Are you referring to current EV batteries or solid state? Current EV batteries are almost completely recyclable and the raw elements can be re-used to make new batteries. Out of 150kg of elements in a current Battery (dont remember the KW size - sry) 130kg are recoverable and can be re-used in a new Battery.  And that is with EV Battery recycling effectively at its infancy. 

[Cyker]

I'm talking about current standard lithium cells - They really aren't very recyclable at all; They're mostly reused for e.g. static storage packs and then thrown into land-fill once they degrade past even that.

I was shocked when I found out, as a lot of EV evangelists like to say how recyclable lithium cells are but from what I've been able to find it's mostly a lie!

There are companies that are trying to find ways to recycle them, but it's just not economically viable at the moment.

Lead Acid batteries are over 90% recyclable IIRC, as they components are all separate (Drain and filter acid, recover lead plates, you're mostly there),

The problem with lithium cells is, unlike lead acid batteries, the parts of a lithium cell are all mashed together - The black paste in particular - And it's impossible to separate the materials in an automated way, so they just grind it all up and use either very very toxic one-use chemicals to extract the nickel and some other metals they want, or pyrolysis which, depending on the specific process, can use more energy than it takes to make a new Battery from raw materials, which is why so far it's been very small scale.

The most galling thing is they don't even bother to recover the lithium from the black paste in a lot of the processes because it's such a small amount and just not worth the effort to them! It's just a stupid crazy waste.

The companies that I knew of who were doing the recycling only surviving due to government grants, but this may have changed as it's been a while since I looked at it as I was shocked at how poor the recycling has been.

 

[swoop5511]

Electric car battery recycling: all you need to know | DrivingElectric

Quote "In November 2020, Finnish company Fortum announced the development of "a new and efficient way" to recycle lithium from rechargeable batteries. Before the development, the firm was already achieving a claimed recycling rate of over 80% for lithium-ion Battery materials, thanks to a low-CO2 hydrometallurgical recycling process to recover cobalt, nickel and manganese.

In January 2022, waste-management firm Veolia announced its first Battery recycling plant in the UK, in Minworth in the West Midlands. It aims to have the capacity to process 20% of the country's end-of-life electric-car batteries by 2024. Veolia describes the used Battery recycling process as 'urban mining' and says it can reduce water consumption and greenhouse-gas emissions by up to 50% compared to extracting fresh raw materials and building brand-new batteries."

As i said car battery recycling is relatively to age in its infancy and only starting out. Most car batteries go on for a 2nd live as solar storage batteries and can last another 10-20 years. 

 

Plenty of other sources online to check. If you can speak German or use translate function. Detailed breakdown. Multi part series - this episode is specifically around raw material use in EVs and vs Combustion engines. 

 

[Cyker]

Yeah, that's what I said, i.e. they are mostly reused for lower capacity applications - A very small fraction of the batteries were being recycled last time I looked; It's good to see that's increasing finally.

I didn't realize they counted the actual pack as part of the recycling so no wonder I've been seeing such conflicting numbers - The pack is easy as it's just a big metal box; The actual cells are what really counts so they're kinda fibbing by including the pack in the % figures.

It's one thing I dislike about a lot of the blurb on this as the higher figures are often really misleading, either project possible future recover rates (Like the Fortum one claiming 80% recovery but it's actually closer to 50% right now) or, now that this has been revealed to me, include the pack materials and not just the lithium cells.