Boris Johnson EV announcement

[FROSTYBALLS]

As I've said previously, a relative has a Peugeot BEV (don't know which one). He works for Aston Martin and frequently has to travel between Aston plants at Gaydon and South Wales. He gets 80 miles range out of the BEV before he needs to stop and recharge - which is about halfway and allows him to have a break and a coffee.

He does sometimes have an Aston on test to take home though .....

[AJones]

19 minutes ago, flash22 said:

bev's will not be mainstream for another 20+ years

The world is changing fast, for UK new-car sales BEVs are already ahead of hybrids, in 2020 sales of BEVs and HEVs were about level, but BEVs pulled ahead in 2021 outselling HEVs (190k BEVs, 147k HEVs, 115k PHEVs), and so far this year BEVs are still ahead of HEVs.

ParisYaris - putting future car value to one side, what you can't get from a forum is the difference in driving experience, you might want to try taking an EV out for a test drive, or split the difference and test drive a PHEV, compare EV driving to HEV driving and see which you prefer.

[flash22]

These cars at 3 years old are mostly out of reach of common man/family price range even at 7-10 years old they are high risk as you're stuck with dealer level pricing for repairs - it will be 2050 before petrol cars are gone, - are BEV's the way forward possibly not

 

With the current economic climate, with 50% increases in energy costs, and the likelihood of interest rates hitting double digits it's not going to end well for a lot of people in the near future

Anyhoo, that's enough of that subject

[TonyHSD]

1 hour ago, AJones said:

The world is changing fast, for UK new-car sales BEVs are already ahead of hybrids, in 2020 sales of BEVs and HEVs were about level, but BEVs pulled ahead in 2021 outselling HEVs (190k BEVs, 147k HEVs, 115k PHEVs), and so far this year BEVs are still ahead of HEVs.

ParisYaris - putting future car value to one side, what you can't get from a forum is the difference in driving experience, you might want to try taking an EV out for a test drive, or split the difference and test drive a PHEV, compare EV driving to HEV driving and see which you prefer.

Bev or Toyota hybrid almost no difference in driving feel, if someone is coming from a petrol or diesel manual straight into the Evs or Toyota hybrids it might be a shock for him as driving experience but for a hybrid owner there is no difference, except one needs petrol quick refill and 400+ miles easily, where the others needs electricity and it’s more complicated. Toyota hybrids actually are the closest vehicles to bev from the moment you unlock the car, get in, start it, select D and off you go.very very similar. Ok later has ice and you can hear it but that’s up to 50 mph and anything above that speeds there is no difference between Toyota hybrids and electric cars. I do drive both and I can compare realistically. “New source of power will be discovered soon”  and imo it will faze out bev as we know it, they simply will turn to be the next con from the governments same as it was with the diesels and the hybrids will remain as the last evolution of ice cars before they go as well. 😉👍

[ParisYaris]

4 hours ago, Pumatron said:

A lot of opinions here, but we basically have no idea which way this is all going to go, not really anyway.

I’ve read so many reports and watched lots videos and so on, from BEV with solid state batteries to the idea that we will just rent a car when we need it, this will self drive to your location, complete the journey, then disappear to do another journey for someone else. This idea being the car is fully utilised rather than just sitting in a parking space not being used for 90% of the time.

I own a BEV, but on a PCP, as I absolutely do not want to own it, because as someone has already said they are like mobile phones.
New technologies or advancements coming out almost daily mean they are out of date very quickly. 
 

I’m happy to buy a Hybrid and sit back and wait and watch where this all leads, what I replace the BEV with in a couple of years is anyone’s guess to be honest!

I know one thing though, the hybrid will stay in my stable long beyond the current BEV…..

Was there any particular reason that stood out for you that made you not want to own a BEV e.g range, inconvenient?

 

[Big_D]

Currently fossil fuel is taxed and is a source of revenue for the Government. With EVs coming along and less fossil fuel being used, will HMRC start charging an electricity tax for charging an EV to compensate for this loss of income??

[Pumatron]

2 hours ago, ParisYaris said:

Was there any particular reason that stood out for you that made you not want to own a BEV e.g range, inconvenient?

 

To be honest I’ve always been interested in BEV’s(since a kid!), it’s only in the last 12 or so years they have started to become (restricted) mainstream vehicles. 

So, as soon as I moved home and had a driveway to charge a car on I started searching for a BEV as a second car.

To be honest it was an easy transition, local trips, short trips charging at home etc, it was easy motoring. 

It all went horribly wrong though when I lost my main (petrol) car after an incident at the dealers, I was compensated but the BEV suddenly became the main and only car.

It was at this point I realised it was only any good as a second car. The advertised range of 200+ miles in the summer was more like 160 miles, and in the winter at best 80 miles.

Motorways, or speeds above 60+ mph would see the range drop off a cliff, unfortunately these were the majority of the journeys for the main (petrol) car. 

So, long journeys turned into a bit of nightmare to be honest.

On top of that I had big issues with it, causing two rejections to be fought between me, the dealer and the manufacturer.

So, I did finally get the 3rd replacement vehicle, but after all that the love had gone, the owner experience along with the lack of manufactures knowledge with this reasonably new technology caused me to go and buy a Toyota Aygo (it was in stock and available filthy cheap)

The Aygo is now massively struggling as the main car, rightfully so as it’s a city car and it was a stop gap car anyway, hence the order of a Yaris back in late 2021.

I’ve done all the fast and prestige cars etc, I’m getting older and wiser, a potential 10 year warranty, and hybrid Mpg’s appeals more to me than 0-60’s or a premium Badge!

Transition to BEV from ICE needs to be fairly seamless, if it isn’t people will get frustrated very quickly. 

[Guest]

On 3/26/2022 at 8:24 PM, Cyker said:

The government has shown again and again they aren't afraid of !Removed! over drivers for money under the pretext of 'the environment'.

I find most of todays 'green initiatives' are just lining peoples pockets and doing very little good for the planet. A lot of green investors end up bankrupt, I suspect for the reasons we've touched on in this thread, how technology moves on and gets way more efficient, so fast that earlier approaches are just primitive and no longer worth the cost.

On 3/26/2022 at 8:26 PM, FROSTYBALLS said:

and hybrids in 2035.

Shocked / sad to hear this. I thought Hybrids would be fine after that date, only solely engine powered cars.  That explains Toyota's sudden interest in making EV only vehicles. I thought evolving the hybrid was truly the best bet. Maybe even to the day we got to tiny 0.5 engines or something that ran on biofuel to power a Battery and motor (or who knows - I'm no expert)

On 3/26/2022 at 8:49 PM, Rosgoe said:

let’s be honest you can’t beat the burble of a V8.

Some of the German cars already copped out on this...I'm sure the GTI and other models (with real engines) have fake sound coming through the interior Speakers.......... yuck 😞 

17 hours ago, Puglet said:

battery life is the big issue for me, whoopie manufacturers guarantee them for 10 years,

It worries me too frankly. Equivalent to an engine failing at 10 years, which in my books and many others, is nearly unheard of (bar your 1.0-1.4 Vauxhall engines it seems..).  Thinking of the likes of our iPhones, I remember a few years ago an issue where after 3 or so years, when the Battery had wore out due to having lived through hundreds of cycles, the heat and cold (just of your pocket and room temperatures alone and during charging), those batteries wore out to the point where, they still held a charge but when doing a lot of tasks at once or doing something demanding, the 'peak performance' was no longer up to the scratch... so the phones would shut off and restart making for a real pain in the ***!

With electric cars, sure they're bigger batteries... but the car and shifting it is a bigger challenge, the capacities and rapid charging apparatus are a bigger challenge, the temperature out in the hot sun (all day long) driving 70+ mph on the motorway, the ice cold winter mornings with the heat blasting, five in the car...  Peak performance will surely drop too come the 6+ year mark like they do on phones and other electronics...  

It's not even economical for me to replace the Battery in an old MacBook that otherwise is perfectly fine and would last another 5 years...  Sure that's Apple being difficult. Are the car companies going to be any less difficult?  I don't know... they're bad enough as it is. From negotiating on the forecourt, taking zero interest in helping customers with difficult dealers, not caring about the insane cost of genuine parts from dealers or making them available directly (okay, so Toyota isn't bad on this one - but I know Citroen etc are).

It's a whole new era of endless possibilities of consumers getting shafted!  Only I doubt, like engines, the computer tech, battery cell tech and characteristics will be as similar from comapny to company as they are with internal combustion enignes. A petrol is a petrol, a diesel is a diesel, with minor variations. Who knows about batteries. I don't even think the companies know yet with how rapid and experimental they've had to evolve them due to strict legislation.

I just hope car consumers don't get as screwed over by BoJo as we did in NI with his policies.. lol

[Guest]

14 hours ago, ParisYaris said:

Was there any particular reason that stood out for you that made you not want to own a BEV e.g range, inconvenient?

 

Possibly living in a high rise block and potentially avoiding complaints about the 150ft extension cable of sufficient cross section to carry all those charging amps?

[Guest]

17 hours ago, FROSTYBALLS said:

As I've said previously, a relative has a Peugeot BEV (don't know which one). He works for Aston Martin and frequently has to travel between Aston plants at Gaydon and South Wales. He gets 80 miles range out of the BEV before he needs to stop and recharge - which is about halfway and allows him to have a break and a coffee.

He does sometimes have an Aston on test to take home though .....

And assuming there's a charging point available, he has the relevant app. and likes coffee, that's fine. However, in the time taken for charging from an available point, he could be almost at his destination with sufficient fuel in the tank.

[flash22]

Coming from a vauxhall background the N/A 1.4 are good engines up to about 2010, then it all goes down hill, the A14LUJ and NET are junk with anything more than 40K on them - i had a upgraded turbo on mine with with custom oil and water lines at 30K it was showing signs of the filter housing/oil cooler starting to weep

[MikeSh]

11 hours ago, Pumatron said:

To be honest I’ve always been interested in BEV’s(since a kid!), it’s only in the last 12 or so years they have started to become (restricted) mainstream vehicles.

My experience was similar except I deliberately bought a new, long range bev as our primary car. It was a brilliant car in many ways but after about 18 months it had to go because it just didn't work for our needs (partly due to the patchy and unreliable charging infrastructure).

I sold it on, at a big loss of course. With the proceeds I was able to buy a 3yo Yaris hybrid with change over to have bought another if I'd wanted. Yes that's how insanely expensive a good bev is.

[AJones]

14 minutes ago, SB1500 said:

 I thought Hybrids would be fine after that date, only solely engine powered cars. 

Ultimately though all of the energy is coming from petrol in a regular hybrid, even though it runs the engine more efficiently and recovers energy from braking, the per-mile emissions are still a lot higher than EV.

14 minutes ago, SB1500 said:

Thinking of the likes of our iPhones, I remember a few years ago an issue where after 3 or so years, when the battery had wore out due to having lived through hundreds of cycles

....

Who knows about batteries. I don't even think the companies know yet with how rapid and experimental they've had to evolve them due to strict legislation.

I looked into this before buying a PHEV, after all what's the point of one if the Battery is useless after a few years. One of the big issues with lithium-ion batteries is managing the depth of discharge because their life-span depends on how deep you discharge them and how fully you charge them, going from 0% to 100% rapidly wears them out in a few hundred cycles, like you get with a mobile phone or laptop, but adding a margin at each end, for example 10% to 90% massively extends the life of the cells into thousands of cycles.

This is what the car manufacturers do, they reserve capacity at each end to protect the Battery and run the Battery within a more limited range, so even when you as the car driver fully charge it, or empty it, you are never actually at the limits of the battery. There's a reserve at each end, there to protect the condition of the battery to ensure a long life.

The other big factor is temperature, so EVs and PHEVs incorporate battery cooling systems to manage temperatures when charging and in use, and heating systems to warm the battery up before charging it in case it is too cold. There's much more control of temperature in an EV and PHEV than say in a mobile phone.

[Hornet3D]

No one can predict with any real accuracy just what the market is going to be in seven or eight year time.  When I purchased an eighteen month old Honda CRV six years ago there was no idea of covid, Brexit or the shortage of chips for new cars and the resulting rise in second hand vehicles.  I purchased it for £15,250 yet part exchanged it for £11,450 so depreciation was less than £1,000 a year over the six years.  

There are far too many variables to attempt to give any real guidance on the value of second hand cars that far in advance so all we can really do is take life as it it is today and then trust to luck.

[wildtapholer]

I can't see me ever being able to afford an electric vehicle even though my yearly mileage would suit one, one reason by the time I could the batteries would need replacing and that's a price a lot of people would pay for a car, the other reason is they keep banging on about how they cheap they are to run, I don't know about anyone else on the forum but my electricity bill is twice as expensive as my gas even with the price increase. I live in a 3 bed bungalow, gas central heating and gas hob, all lights now LED, changed the built in oven, freezer and fridge to more energy efficient and electric is more than double the yearly gas price, even in the summer last year the electric was more than the gas and we were living on salads.

[Cyker]

The weird contradiction with EVs is you need to do a lot of miles in them to recoup the costs, but they aren't suitable for long distance travel!

With diesel you also needed to do lots of miles to recoup the cost difference, but diesels excel at long distance so it was more compelling.

The cost of EVs will come down, esp. as new Battery types come around, but I'm happy to wait as, in my opinion, they kinda suck right now, esp if you don't want to drive a mammoth road boat. I feel we're at the Prius Mk1/Mk2 stage of development right now, and it took Toyota 15-20 years to get from that to the awesome TNGA-based hybrids they have now so I reckon we're in for a similar wait time for EVs to stop sucking.

300+ miles at 70mph in winter in a car the size of a Mk2-Mk4 Yaris is what I'm looking out for, and we're quite a ways away from that...

 

[MikeSh]

2 hours ago, Cyker said:

300+ miles at 70mph in winter in a car the size of a Mk2-Mk4 Yaris

That is actually one of the main problems. Small family size cars, probably the most popular size, can have a decent size fuel tank but are just not big enough to take a large enough Battery for long journeys, with current technology.

Solid state batteries may be the solution, but they seem to be a bit like fusion power generation ... Soon, very soon, maybe sooner.

[TonyHSD]

Range anxiety 😥, but let’s be real.
My Toyota hybrid loose around 20% of its range in winter months due to the cold weather plus the fact that I spend many hours in and I use the car in ready mode for heating 22C° and power purposes which also reduces the economy, all together I have over 400miles available from a full tank. In the summer same driving without ready mode but with AC I am getting over 500 miles from a full tank, I also do proper calculations often and I know my real fuel consumption which seems unchanged for over 11 years and here it is the lead of the hybrids ahead of bev .
Toyota Auris hybrid from 2010 drives as good as new plus it’s efficient as new. Now if we compare a bev from the same era, Nissan Leaf for example which is very close competitor that car will barely be able to reach 60-70% of its original range, add the weather factor and driving style (motorway for example) and you will end up with car that is almost useless. Whatever your driving needs are, if you have to plug your car more often that 2-3 times a week it’s a huge burden and very inconvenient for the driver. 

[Stopeter44]

31 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

... Now if we compare a bev from the same era, Nissan Leaf for example which is very close competitor that car will barely be able to reach 60-70% of its original range, add the weather factor and driving style (motorway for example) and you will end up with car that is almost useless.

That bad ? That pretty much makes "buying" a BEV a non starter, leasing would seem the only sensible option.

[john p williams]

22 hours ago, Hornet3D said:

No one can predict with any real accuracy just what the market is going to be in seven or eight year time.  When I purchased an eighteen month old Honda CRV six years ago there was no idea of covid, Brexit or the shortage of chips for new cars and the resulting rise in second hand vehicles.  I purchased it for £15,250 yet part exchanged it for £11,450 so depreciation was less than £1,000 a year over the six years.  

There are far too many variables to attempt to give any real guidance on the value of second hand cars that far in advance so all we can really do is take life as it it is today and then trust to luck.

Or keep a purchased vehicle for 20 (Toyota Hybrid ) years and extract maximum value from it.

[Hornet3D]

31 minutes ago, john p williams said:

Or keep a purchased vehicle for 20 (Toyota Hybrid ) years and extract maximum value from it.

That is certainly a valid option, it is something I would have like to have done with the CRV but sadly our live style changed so much over the six years we had it it did not make sense to do so.  There were many factors that conspired to ruin the idea, change of life style, increase in the second hand value, rising cost of petrol, aging car with lots of high tech toys that could go wrong and the inability to extend the Honda warranty due to age were all factors.  Then again had things have been different over the same six years it might have supported keeping it a lot longer.

[john p williams]

3 minutes ago, Hornet3D said:

That is certainly a valid option, it is something I would have like to have done with the CRV but sadly our live style changed so much over the six years we had it it did not make sense to do so.  There were many factors that conspired to ruin the idea, change of life style, increase in the second hand value, rising cost of petrol, aging car with lots of high tech toys that could go wrong and the inability to extend the Honda warranty due to age were all factors.  Then again had things have been different over the same six years it might have supported keeping it a lot longer.

All so true Paul. Thanks.

[Hornet3D]

11 hours ago, wildtapholer said:

I can't see me ever being able to afford an electric vehicle even though my yearly mileage would suit one, one reason by the time I could the batteries would need replacing and that's a price a lot of people would pay for a car, the other reason is they keep banging on about how they cheap they are to run, I don't know about anyone else on the forum but my electricity bill is twice as expensive as my gas even with the price increase. I live in a 3 bed bungalow, gas central heating and gas hob, all lights now LED, changed the built in oven, freezer and fridge to more energy efficient and electric is more than double the yearly gas price, even in the summer last year the electric was more than the gas and we were living on salads.

I am in the same position as you, I cannot afford an electric vehicle now or in the near future and by the time I might be able to do so I will be of an age that I really should be giving up my driving license.

Apart from that, the future looks very suspect for all the changes that are being put in place and the plans being discussed.  I am really bewildered at the talk of there being toll roads to make up for the loss of revenue on fuel as the car pool moves to electric.   Sure there is no Vehicle Excise License on electric vehicles (for now) and the owners will not pay for petrol but they are using electricity, a fuel that is rising faster in price than petrol or diesel.  Any guesses on the price of electricity by the end of next year let alone in six years time.  Another fuel that carries both forms of VAT, Value Added Tax and Vague Additions to Total, how else would you explain all money being taken so say for green technology.  A technology the electric car owners have already bough into and now being taxed more because they have.  I also wonder on how the change is going to be made to the infrastructure as many petrol forecourts close and the impact that will have on jobs.  

Given that the government is already pushing for an unproved technology such as hydrogen boilers in the home and in a time frame that is far from realistic I am not convinced that the plans for the roll out of electric vehicles is any more joined up.

[AJones]

38 minutes ago, Hornet3D said:

I am in the same position as you, I cannot afford an electric vehicle now or in the near future and by the time I might be able to do so I will be of an age that I really should be giving up my driving license.

Like all brand new cars they are very expensive but the gap has been closing, a small EV like a Peugeot e208 or Corsa-e are around £25,000 so a lot of money, but a Yaris starts at £21,000 so that gap isn't huge. Something bigger like a Toyota C-HR starts at over £28,000 which will also buy you an MG ZS EV. Anyone shopping for a brand new car could probably get an EV if they shopped around.

I agree it's more of a challenge if you are looking for an affordable used EV, there just aren't that many about yet because they've only recently started selling in high volumes so it will be a few years until they trickle down into the used market. The more affordable used option are the PHEVs, where you see more ex-fleet ones being sold.

38 minutes ago, Hornet3D said:

Given that the government is already pushing for an unproved technology such as hydrogen boilers in the home and in a time frame that is far from realistic I am not convinced that the plans for the roll out of electric vehicles is any more joined up.

Back before the 1960s the UK ran on town gas, made from coal, which contained a significant proportion of hydrogen, people were burning hydrogen in their gas fires, cookers and boilers so hydrogen in the home isn't new, it's actually old. Making all of that hydrogen will be the challenge.

[TonyHSD]

4 hours ago, Stopeter44 said:

That bad ? That pretty much makes "buying" a BEV a non starter, leasing would seem the only sensible option.

That bad indeed Peter. 

I knew all that when he first introduced this car as cheapest available on auto trader. Few months later he publicly agreed with my theory about old bev and here it is. 👌🛞👍