Boris Johnson EV announcement

[preperationlaunch]

The Leaf of that era is a particularly bad example, with the size of the Battery meaning accelerated wear and the range not being particularly good anyway. You're only starting with 22kWh.

They also used forced air cooling, limiting their lifespans in hot areas, and the post-2014 or so Leafs are much better in terms of Battery wear due to using a better cell chemistry, especially in warmer climates.

A counter example would be the Ampera/Chevy Volt from the same era. They have an 10.8kwh usable Battery, derated from a total of 15kWh with liquid cooling and good quality cells. Very few owners have seen any range reduction from them, even after hundreds of thousands of miles. The Volt/Ampera was designed around most people only doing about 30 miles a day, which would be sufficient from an EV, with a reasonable motor for doing any long distances. They can do up to about 50 miles a charge on a good run, which isn't bad at all for 2012.
But, marketing and price killed the Volt.

More modern BEVs are using heat pumps too, so the energy drain from heating is minimal compared to the older way of running a big resistive heating element.

I know people that drive from the North of England to the South of France regularly in their BEV, with range between 180-350 miles (absolute worst to absolute best case) depending on the time of year. Their experience has been that charging infrastructure is much better on the continent.

People talk about the environmental aspects, but, consider how many cells are now being reused out of EVs, a cell that isn't useful in a BEV anymore is still useful as grid storage and other lower current applications.

[davidif]

3 hours ago, AJones said:

Like all brand new cars they are very expensive but the gap has been closing, a small EV like a Peugeot e208 or Corsa-e are around £25,000 so a lot of money, but a Yaris starts at £21,000 so that gap isn't huge. Something bigger like a Toyota C-HR starts at over £28,000 which will also buy you an MG ZS EV. Anyone shopping for a brand new car could probably get an EV if they shopped around.

I agree it's more of a challenge if you are looking for an affordable used EV, there just aren't that many about yet because they've only recently started selling in high volumes so it will be a few years until they trickle down into the used market. The more affordable used option are the PHEVs, where you see more ex-fleet ones being sold.

Back before the 1960s the UK ran on town gas, made from coal, which contained a significant proportion of hydrogen, people were burning hydrogen in their gas fires, cookers and boilers so hydrogen in the home isn't new, it's actually old. Making all of that hydrogen will be the challenge.

IMO the price comparison is based on an unlevel playing field in so far as for a BEV it takes into account a Government Grant of £3,500

I personally resent my taxes being spent in a way that benefits largely fairly wealthy buyers of BEV's

[Spo2]

53 minutes ago, davidif said:

IMO the price comparison is based on an unlevel playing field in so far as for a BEV it takes into account a Government Grant of £3,500

For me, the issue is the benefit of the product (BEV) for the money spent. IMO, no BEV will do 400ish miles on motorways running at 70 mph with heating and music on. In addition to the hassle of poor infrastructure for charging, the service cost is not cheap either despite them being more simple machines- checked for the service cost of Model 3 and EV6. 

[ParisYaris]

I think that in the future the usage of 'full' hybrid vehicles should be allow to continue on the road and run along side BEV.  This will offer options for those who can't or not in a position to adopt BEV.  Besides, would it not be a security risk and unfeasible to rely our transportation on one source of energy i.e electric only.

 

[TonyHSD]

15 minutes ago, ParisYaris said:

I think that in the future the usage of 'full' hybrid vehicles should be allow to continue on the road and run along side BEV.  This will offer options for those who can't or not in a position to adopt BEV.  Besides, would it not be a security risk and unfeasible to rely our transportation on one source of energy i.e electric only.

 

This is exactly what I think ✅👍

[forkingabout]

I didn't even bother looking at BEV as I've nowhere at home or work to charge one up.

For me to charge up an EV, I'd have to make an extra journey to somewhere I don't currently travel to & then take pot luck if there is a charge point available.

I pass 3 fuel filling stations on the way to / from work. 

I'm going hybrid instead.  

[TonyHSD]

I was thinking back in 2019 about model 3, I can charge at home and the mileage I do the savings from the petrol will almost pay in full monthly cost of the Tesla. However the new bev will reach end of its warranty just after 2.5 years old in my hands and I will have a very expensive car with potentially expensive Battery and drive train that might need a replacement at some point at my own expense. It didn’t work for me, however my girlfriend works in central London and she went and leased a new ioniq electric, very nice car indeed, very efficient, comfortable, all good. The range though between 150-180 real world, not enough for me. Toyota hybrids are great replacement of diesel cars, efficient and nicer to drive, as good as bev but just fill up with petrol. 🛞👌

[Hornet3D]

7 hours ago, AJones said:

Back before the 1960s the UK ran on town gas, made from coal, which contained a significant proportion of hydrogen, people were burning hydrogen in their gas fires, cookers and boilers so hydrogen in the home isn't new, it's actually old. Making all of that hydrogen will be the challenge.

I don't have an issue with the hydrogen as a fuel just the way the consumer is being pressured to use it when there are still unanswered questions, such as you raise like how is it going to be produced.  At the same time they are pushing heat exchangers when large parts of the industry accepts that the technology is not ready yet, it is not a direct replacement for the gas boiler if used on it's own.  At the present moment it is also outside the price range of the average consumer, much like electric vehicles are at the moment.  

If the government really wants us all running around in electric vehicles it has to do something about the two big restraints for most buyers, the initial cost and range anxiety.

[Big_D]

3 hours ago, Hornet3D said:

If the government really wants us all running around in electric vehicles it has to do something about the two big restraints for most buyers, the initial cost and range anxiety.

And charging facilities - Will the existing power grid be able to charge all the EVs every night??

[preperationlaunch]

Some quick back of an envelope maths, peak demand in winter is around ~50GW, current demand as I type this is ~30GW. Minimum night time summer demand is 20GW

Assuming every car was pulling 7.2kW (lower-tier fast charging) at once, that'd give us around 3-5 million cars worth of spare capacity.

But, it gets more interesting with smart chargers, and smarter grids. In all likelihood, you'll tell the car what time you want it charged by, that'll then communicate with the charger and the grid to make sure that happens. There are plenty of people that would leave the car plugged in whilst at home if it meant their electricity bill was notably cheaper. Assuming a shallow depth of discharge, the impact on the car's Battery would be negligible at most. 

You may also benefit if you have a car that supports vehicle-to-grid charging and leave your car plugged in. Again, the car will be charged by the time you need it, but it may well have been contributing to grid stability overnight. Especially as we continue to move to renewables. It can be more efficient to get a few batteries to charge at the right time than it is to ramp up and down fossil or nuclear power stations. Toyota hybrids work along a very similar principle of using the Battery to keep the engine in an optimum range.

Realistically, peak times will shift as demand does.

[Cyker]

I'm a lot more pessimistic - At the moment most EVs are owned by fairly well-off people who have driveways or garages and can charge at home overnight which means the majority of that power is going to be from gas turbines, with the rest from fission and wind depending on the weather.

This is going to become more problematic as we wind down gas power plants as existing nuclear plants will not be able to handle the load and wind is too inconsistent. We need some major solar grid-storage or more fission plants; I'm hoping these modular reactors will become more publicly acceptable so we can have a more diversified system.

The other problem I see is mass deployment of rapid chargers - Most of us non-rich folk will need to use public charging infrastructure, probably during the day time which will push up daytime peak demand, but at least we get the solar then.

However, most rapid chargers are around 50kW, that means you're already pulling 1MW if 20 stalls are all charging at the same time.

Worse, we're looking at 100kW, 150kW, even 300kW chargers now - That is going to be several GW of extra power that will be needed as everyone has to switch to EVs. It will put a lot of stress on the grid - Imagine in summer when everyone has an EV and all these cars on long trips will repeatedly need charging - We'll potentially be seeing spikes of several 10's of MW going up and down all over the grid at peak times!

We already have emergency power deployment for 'kettle time' - We are going to need something several orders of magnitude more to cope with the power spikes from mass EV charging!

We've got a lot of time to plan for that, but I really hope the power companies are on the ball as if it's left to our politicians to plan this out I think we'll be seeing a lot more blackouts post 2030!

[TonyHSD]

45 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I'm a lot more pessimistic - At the moment most EVs are owned by fairly well-off people who have driveways or garages and can charge at home overnight which means the majority of that power is going to be from gas turbines, with the rest from fission and wind depending on the weather.

This is going to become more problematic as we wind down gas power plants as existing nuclear plants will not be able to handle the load and wind is too inconsistent. We need some major solar grid-storage or more fission plants; I'm hoping these modular reactors will become more publicly acceptable so we can have a more diversified system.

The other problem I see is mass deployment of rapid chargers - Most of us non-rich folk will need to use public charging infrastructure, probably during the day time which will push up daytime peak demand, but at least we get the solar then.

However, most rapid chargers are around 50kW, that means you're already pulling 1MW if 20 stalls are all charging at the same time.

Worse, we're looking at 100kW, 150kW, even 300kW chargers now - That is going to be several GW of extra power that will be needed as everyone has to switch to EVs. It will put a lot of stress on the grid - Imagine in summer when everyone has an EV and all these cars on long trips will repeatedly need charging - We'll potentially be seeing spikes of several 10's of MW going up and down all over the grid at peak times!

We already have emergency power deployment for 'kettle time' - We are going to need something several orders of magnitude more to cope with the power spikes from mass EV charging!

We've got a lot of time to plan for that, but I really hope the power companies are on the ball as if it's left to our politicians to plan this out I think we'll be seeing a lot more blackouts post 2030!

Hahah that’s not problem, the entire village will be blackout without power ⚡️because the mayor of the village is charging his electric Range Rover 🔋⚡️🔌😂 

[MikeSh]

3 hours ago, Big_D said:

Will the existing power grid be able to charge all the EVs every night??

National Grid have assessed this and it isn't a problem. It may require some adjustments but it's not going to be overnight and is considered perfectly manageable when you consider that plant is being changed all the time anyway.

The local distribution - ie. in the street may be the bigger problem.

[MikeSh]

1 hour ago, Cyker said:

The other problem I see is mass deployment of rapid chargers - Most of us non-rich folk will need to use public charging infrastructure, probably during the day time which will push up daytime peak demand, but at least we get the solar then.

What many people don't realise is that rapid charging is expensive. Cost per mile can easily exceed petrol prices in some cases, so unless you can charge at home or at a free/cheap supermarket the much vaunted cheapness of electric vehicles pretty much goes out the window. A bit of demand pricing will stop casual users charging when loads are high.

[Sidrat]

Add to "will the existing power grid....", they are trying to phase out gas boilers so when we all have air source heat pumps installed etc.  What will the draw on the power grid be then combined with everyone charging their cars?  Once we are all driving EVs how will the caravaners get on, towing one will be a real range killer for an EV if it could at all.  Does this mean in 20-30 years time there will be no caravans or trailers on the road?

[davidif]

2 hours ago, Sidrat said:

Add to "will the existing power grid....", they are trying to phase out gas boilers so when we all have air source heat pumps installed etc.  What will the draw on the power grid be then combined with everyone charging their cars?  Once we are all driving EVs how will the caravaners get on, towing one will be a real range killer for an EV if it could at all.  Does this mean in 20-30 years time there will be no caravans or trailers on the road?

Small mercy's 😂

[Hornet3D]

3 hours ago, Sidrat said:

Add to "will the existing power grid....", they are trying to phase out gas boilers so when we all have air source heat pumps installed etc.  What will the draw on the power grid be then combined with everyone charging their cars?  Once we are all driving EVs how will the caravaners get on, towing one will be a real range killer for an EV if it could at all.  Does this mean in 20-30 years time there will be no caravans or trailers on the road?

It is a fair question but unlikely to be answered any time soon.  The only thing the government has in mind is what it can ban in the next 20 to 30 years such as petrol cars on the road and gas boilers in the home.  Working out how the average customer can afford this when they are struggling pay for the energy they use now is far too complex to plan for, let alone the impact of all these changes will have on lifestyle and the energy supply.

[Cyker]

16 hours ago, MikeSh said:

What many people don't realise is that rapid charging is expensive. Cost per mile can easily exceed petrol prices in some cases, so unless you can charge at home or at a free/cheap supermarket the much vaunted cheapness of electric vehicles pretty much goes out the window. A bit of demand pricing will stop casual users charging when loads are high.

Yeah, poor Guy Martin nearly had a heart attack when he charged up the Ioniq 5 he was testing  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FgxzYVaItQ

 

[Guest]

I just hope that in the next 8 years, I see more affordable, longer lasting and less compromise from electric cars to be honest. I still don't think it's the answer, not one bit.

Even the likes of what Mazda are doing... I heard they're making electric cars, but the engine bay has a massive gap where a handheld / mobile tiny engine (a rotary too I hear) will be able to be added inside to charge the electric system without compromise.  To me, that's phenomenal - sure it burns some fuel but it stops you from getting stuck - right?  A friend could come and drop one off for you and you could be on your way, the new version of jump starting.

I'm sure the 2030 target will be delayed. I kind of hope so - from where I stand today. Because I suspect the electric car trend will fall apart in the next few years or at least, it'll be exposed as not the solution everybody thought it was, whilst enough Petrol/Diesels are around for consumers to go back to in droves making a clear statement against electric that governments and shareholders won't be able to or want to ignore..  again, unless something blows my mind by then, I'm open to that

[Cyker]

I'm not optimistic either. Electric cars are already as expensive to charge publicly as our TNGA hybrids are to fuel, and now that home electricity costs are going up to match, even charging at home will loose its no-brainer cheapness.

And this is all without 'fuel duty' - If they do decide to levy fuel duty on public charging the cost per mile will be far in excess of even a normal petrol car!

 

[Big_D]

[TonyHSD]

The Evs are best to drive and has only one advantage over anything else, the 0 emissions. Toyota hybrids otoh are as nice to drive , very little emissions when driven properly and require a very little fuel. Easier to produce, easier to recycle, less Battery material and as reliable as Evs  if not even more reliable than them. These are perhaps the strength points on which Toyota boss was pleading to us government to stop this stupidity with Evs, but here we go money and political interest first over anything else, environment comes last tbh. Battery gate is coming in the next 8 years or so. I hope and wish to everyone been well and healthy and we can talk about that in the future. 👍😉🪫

[ParisYaris]

On 3/30/2022 at 6:23 PM, Cyker said:

Yeah, poor Guy Martin nearly had a heart attack when he charged up the Ioniq 5 he was testing  

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_FgxzYVaItQ

 

It's not only the cost to charge and time that is needed to charge that is important, but for me there is definitely an element of risk.  By that I mean having to wait around in an unfamiliar charge point area or service station many many miles away from home, and even have to divert off route to locate a charge point.  To add to that if you have children or eldely passengers too.

[Cyker]

Yeah, I was 'discussing' this with an EV enthusiast once, where he was saying how long trips were easy you just had to plan them out, whereas I literally use one of 3 petrol stations near me and go anywhere I like without having to plan fuel stops on the way!

If I get an EV it won't be for environmental reasons, it's because my compulsion to launch at the lights has gotten worse and I may need to be sectioned   If I ever get my own house with its own garage/driveway (Looking less and less likely...), I do like the novelty of charging at home so I'd never even have to go to a petrol pump, but that requires EVs to have far *far* more range than they do currently.

(The fact that EV people consider 150-200 miles 'long range' just shows how big the divide is between their mindset and that of a normal car owner. Now, the 600-800 miles my old diesel Yaris could do? THAT is long range!)

 

[Guest]

I've never driven an EV, but I understand it is a phenomenal experience - quiet, instant power and all that. And I don't argue that, I bet it is a mind blowingly nice experience that ones who have them don't want to give up easily.  But then again, that's exactly how the V8 Range Rover and 6.2L Mercedes drivers feel too, their phenomenal driving experience they don't want to give up (albeit, in a different way) 

I wait for Battery gate to save us tbh. I'm glad Toyota is introducing EV models separately (e.g. not offering a full electric Corolla, Yaris etc). Then they can pull the plug if 5 years down the line it's clear that EVs aren't the solution and get back to evolving hybrids at least. 

I honestly, honestly think the likes of Toytota and the other switched-on-brain car makers like Volvo would have looked at this a longtime ago and focussed on EVs over hybrids long before legislation forced them to if they and their engineering foresight thought it was a good idea. After all, who forced Toyota to invest so much in Hybrids? Nobody. I assume it came as a natural next step in wanting to make more fuel efficient cars, but also, with the balancer of 'if this thing isn't as practical day to day, it will be too hard a sell and normal people won't buy it'. 

It's too easy for our more local car makers in Europe to get behind EVs, big EU and local government grants to fund the research and make it a reality - good idea to the market or the scientists or not.  And I think that's what we're seeing really. 

I bet GM are raging they left us... they were never too great at building combustion engines anyway 😉 lol