T27 1.8i 2ZR-FAE Power loss at low rpm

[JiiN]

What can possible do power loss at low rpm at T27 1.8i? Problem appears with warm engine and usually noticed easiest when driving to intersection and need brisk acceleration after turn. Car also jerks a little bit when I push gas pedal to the floor at low rpm.

I know these cars doesn't have torque at all at low rpm but it feels like even that little amount of torque has lost.

Spark plugs and air filter is new. I checked vacuum leaks and there is none. 

I also checked with bluetooth-OBD app that gas pedal is working right. Throttle body position stays still when car jerks.

Techstream doesn't give any trouble codes.

What could possible do this?

[Konrad C]

I would say to check the MAF sensor by cleaning. Techstream can do tests and checks, but you need to know what you are doing. I the Valvematic control has a problem, it would normally throw a code. A few ZR engines 2010 - 2011 have had V-matic controller issues, I noted from posts from various forums - Auris and Avensis. What about contaminated few?
 

[TonyHSD]

Hi, 

I would like to add throttle body and egr valve are common faults that often can not be noted by the car ecu and remain mystery until you take them out and clean, MAF/MAP sensor included. Dirty Oxygen sensors and catalytic converter also can cause similar issues and often without any warning lights. 
Perhaps you have to start with regular service, if done recently, how was completed, what was changed etc? All the above may needs checking along with spark plugs and air filter. After all steps checked and service completed, you may want to try a fuel additive and take the car for a 40 min motorway drive, no need fast speeds but continues driving to rise temperature and burn any eventual soot accumulated. One of the best additive that may help you is wynns catalytic converter and lambda sensor cleaner. Add to max of 30ltr of fuel. 👍

[JiiN]

I didn't remember to mention that MAF sensor is also cleaned and it didn't help. Car is driven mostly higher speeds than only driving in a city and annual "MOT" test here in Finland includes also exhaust emission test so I think catalytic converter isn't clogged. Mileage is 130 000km (80 000 miles).

This problem appeared now when spring came and weather got warmer. This morning was little colder and when engine was colder too I didn't notice problem and car felt normal. Afternoon got warmer and when I drove the engine warm problem appeared again.

[TonyHSD]

34 minutes ago, JiiN said:

I didn't remember to mention that MAF sensor is also cleaned and it didn't help. Car is driven mostly higher speeds than only driving in a city and annual "MOT" test here in Finland includes also exhaust emission test so I think catalytic converter isn't clogged. Mileage is 130 000km (80 000 miles).

This problem appeared now when spring came and weather got warmer. This morning was little colder and when engine was colder too I didn't notice problem and car felt normal. Afternoon got warmer and when I drove the engine warm problem appeared again.

Has the throttle body ever been cleaned ? If not this is first thing together with maf sensor which is located next to it on the intake manifold. It may not fix your issue but as preventative maintenance is a good idea. All the issues that I ever had with dirty throttle body has happened on hot days and without any fault codes registered. 

[JiiN]

8 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Has the throttle body ever been cleaned ? If not this is first thing together with maf sensor which is located next to it on the intake manifold. It may not fix your issue but as preventative maintenance is a good idea. All the issues that I ever had with dirty throttle body has happened on hot days and without any fault codes registered. 

I think it hasn't been cleaned. I have to clean that next. Thanks! 

[JiiN]

Throttle body is now cleaned. It was pretty clean already and ignition on it responses to gas pedal very smoothly. So I think that doesn't explain those accelerate-jerks. 

[Konrad C]

6 hours ago, Konrad C said:

I would say to check the MAF sensor by cleaning. Techstream can do tests and checks, but you need to know what you are doing. I the Valvematic control has a problem, it would normally throw a code. A few ZR engines 2010 - 2011 have had V-matic controller issues, I noted from posts from various forums - Auris and Avensis. What about contaminated few?
 

I meant to say contaminated fuel. Talking of fuel, did your car have the recall mine had 3 years ago?  

[JiiN]

40 minutes ago, Konrad C said:

I meant to say contaminated fuel. Talking of fuel, did your car have the recall mine had 3 years ago?  

I drive fuel level always pretty low (20-30% at tank) before refueling so I think fuel isn't contaminated. This issue has appeared about 3 refueling interval now.

I've been owner this car about 1,5 years now and only some airbag recall have been at this time. Previous owner was older woman and car is serviced at dealership everytime and probably recalls are made (no documents at service manual about recalls).

[TonyHSD]

31 minutes ago, JiiN said:

I drive fuel level always pretty low (20-30% at tank) before refueling so I think fuel isn't contaminated. This issue has appeared about 3 refueling interval now.

I've been owner this car about 1,5 years now and only some airbag recall have been at this time. Previous owner was older woman and car is serviced at dealership everytime and probably recalls are made (no documents at service manual about recalls).

Have you filled  up at the same station? Sometimes fuels can be of poor quality for some reason. I personally always sense if the fuel it’s not up to the standard and the engine is somewhat sluggish and noisier. Do you drive with 95 or premium 99-100 octane? You can try the premium fuel and see if there are any changes. 

[JiiN]

3 hours ago, TonyHSD said:

Have you filled  up at the same station? Sometimes fuels can be of poor quality for some reason. I personally always sense if the fuel it’s not up to the standard and the engine is somewhat sluggish and noisier. Do you drive with 95 or premium 99-100 octane? You can try the premium fuel and see if there are any changes. 

All of refuelings was different stations. In Finland we have 95E10 (10% ethanol) and 98E5 (5%ethanol) and Shell sells V-Power wich is 99 octane. I've always been driven with 98E5. 

This is so mystery because anything haven't changed (except ofcourse those new parts what I have changed after this problem) but still this issue appears and only with warm engine.

Could it be ECU update needed? Local dealership said that they maybe can or maybe can't update this model ECU but it costs about 100€ anyway.

[TonyHSD]

8 hours ago, JiiN said:

All of refuelings was different stations. In Finland we have 95E10 (10% ethanol) and 98E5 (5%ethanol) and Shell sells V-Power wich is 99 octane. I've always been driven with 98E5. 

This is so mystery because anything haven't changed (except ofcourse those new parts what I have changed after this problem) but still this issue appears and only with warm engine.

Could it be ECU update needed? Local dealership said that they maybe can or maybe can't update this model ECU but it costs about 100€ anyway.

Hi, 

I am not sure ecu or software can cause similar issues. If you have done anything and also the mechanics can not find the problem perhaps you can just leave it like that until becomes bigger issue and trigger any fault codes so you have a starting point from where to look for. , otherwise you can change many parts without any results. 

[JiiN]

11 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Hi, 

I am not sure ecu or software can cause similar issues. If you have done anything and also the mechanics can not find the problem perhaps you can just leave it like that until becomes bigger issue and trigger any fault codes so you have a starting point from where to look for. , otherwise you can change many parts without any results. 

Hi!

Yes that is true.

Fuel consumption haven't got any higher and anything else haven't changed so thats why it is really difficult to realize what could do this.

 

[JiiN]

I found this topic: 

 

It looks similar problem and nick highbeam have written about that ECU update. It looks like He live in Finland too but last visit was at forum november 2021.

[Konrad C]

On 4/22/2022 at 8:26 AM, JiiN said:

I found this topic: 

 

It looks similar problem and nick highbeam have written about that ECU update. It looks like He live in Finland too but last visit was at forum november 2021.

I was one of the replies and posted the photos showing me cleaning the MAF sensor.  I have a new recent issue when stationary during a journey, the engine will suddenly increase to just over 2000 rpm then settle back down to normal idle - like I press the accelerator pedal then released it. The only thing is the stereo and dash cam. No heater or air-con, the engine is at normal temperature. I will be doing my own checks and gather some information. This sudden rise in revs happens a few times or none at all. Performance is fine otherwise. No jerking and using local Morrison's E10 fuel. I have plenty of diagnostic options available to me, so it just my time and check connections and vacuum leaks. The car 2009 '58 plate 1.8 Valvematic, owned is 2015. All fluid levels are good and the oil is just a little below maximum since I changed it back in July 2021. Basically I have not needed to top up the oil (0w-20). Car is on 99'000 miles. 

When and if find something, I will get back here or make a new post.  
 

[flash22]

Sound like something breaking down under heat and load possibly a coil pack or a sensor, scan the car for codes and have a look at the fuel trims and misfire counters

[JiiN]

Update to this problem. Spark plugs was driven couple thousand kilometers and Toyota mechanic still recommended to try new spark plugs. I was very sceptical but decide to give a try. Engine behaviour changed a lot! Now my T27 is like it should be! Old spark plugs was very clean, they weren't worn at all and gap was 1,1mm like new ones. Both (new and old ones) are Denso OEM spark plugs.

After all: New spark plugs fixed this problem! 

Thanks everyone!

[TonyHSD]

13 hours ago, JiiN said:

Update to this problem. Spark plugs was driven couple thousand kilometers and Toyota mechanic still recommended to try new spark plugs. I was very sceptical but decide to give a try. Engine behaviour changed a lot! Now my T27 is like it should be! Old spark plugs was very clean, they weren't worn at all and gap was 1,1mm like new ones. Both (new and old ones) are Denso OEM spark plugs.

After all: New spark plugs fixed this problem! 

Thanks everyone!

Was the car only at Toyota ever serviced? Recently “ fake genuine”  parts been wide spread, especially bought through eBay. 

[flash22]

Wrong plugs fitted ?? the 1.8 runs like carp on SC20HR11 plugs (you can still buy these) Toyota and Denso changed them to a SC16HR11 due to poor running and high wear rates

[JiiN]

1 hour ago, TonyHSD said:

Was the car only at Toyota ever serviced? Recently “ fake genuine”  parts been wide spread, especially bought through eBay. 

Car is alway serviced at Toyota. Spark plugs was bought from Toyota both times.

 

1 hour ago, flash22 said:

Wrong plugs fitted ?? the 1.8 runs like carp on SC20HR11 plugs (you can still buy these) Toyota and Denso changed them to a SC16HR11 due to poor running and high wear rates

Both was SC16HR11. I threw them to garbage can and didn't realize to take comparison picture but I compared those old and new ones in my hands and that made me so sceptical. Didn't see any diff of them but luckily I believed Toyota service and give a try.

[driftaaja5]

Hello, 

I do have a same kind of problem, no warning or error lights. When accelerating to highway (mostly when turning with speed of 40 kmh and up) and sometimes in straights the car hesitates to take rpms. stays very long at 3800 - 4000 rpm, before taking off.  It feels like engine surging many seconds at 4000 rpm with gaining speed and then takes of normally 

I have cleaned MAP & partially throttle body. Before that car hesitated in 3000 rpm, after cleaning 3800 - 4000 rpm. Before fuel consumption was 7,9 - 8,2 litres, after cleaning 7,1 -7,5 litres. Using 95 octane gasoline (10% ethanol)

When starting cold or initializing the system (taking of negative terminal and some fuses) the car work perfectly, but when getting warm or system finds it state it starts to hesitate.

Just checked vacuum pipes and they were ok to me. 

Valvematic motor has been replaced a year ago. Timing chain tensioner has been changed due oil leak two years ago, still leaking (probably paper sealant has been get wet when changing). I do not remember if spark plugs have ever changed but car has been serviced by toyota dealer from 0 - 250 000 km, so probably in some point. Car had the fuel pump recall many years ago, could someone explain what has been done in it, can it have impact on this? Automatic oil & filter has been changed a year ago at dealer, no effect to hesitation

For next I will clean throttle body completely by taking it out. Lets see if it has any effect. 

Mean while could you @JiiN report if changing spark plugs still helps? thank you

My car is Toyota Avensis Wagon 2010 Multidrive S T27 2zr-fae. Current ODO 289 000 km. Country: Finland

-Drift

 

 

[avetoy]

Changing the spark plugs is worth to try. Denso SC16HR11 from Aeromotors for examble... cheaper than Mr T or even Motonet.

[JiiN]

13 hours ago, driftaaja5 said:

Hello, 

I do have a same kind of problem, no warning or error lights. When accelerating to highway (mostly when turning with speed of 40 kmh and up) and sometimes in straights the car hesitates to take rpms. stays very long at 3800 - 4000 rpm, before taking off.  It feels like engine surging many seconds at 4000 rpm with gaining speed and then takes of normally 

I have cleaned MAP & partially throttle body. Before that car hesitated in 3000 rpm, after cleaning 3800 - 4000 rpm. Before fuel consumption was 7,9 - 8,2 litres, after cleaning 7,1 -7,5 litres. Using 95 octane gasoline (10% ethanol)

When starting cold or initializing the system (taking of negative terminal and some fuses) the car work perfectly, but when getting warm or system finds it state it starts to hesitate.

Just checked vacuum pipes and they were ok to me. 

Valvematic motor has been replaced a year ago. Timing chain tensioner has been changed due oil leak two years ago, still leaking (probably paper sealant has been get wet when changing). I do not remember if spark plugs have ever changed but car has been serviced by toyota dealer from 0 - 250 000 km, so probably in some point. Car had the fuel pump recall many years ago, could someone explain what has been done in it, can it have impact on this? Automatic oil & filter has been changed a year ago at dealer, no effect to hesitation

For next I will clean throttle body completely by taking it out. Lets see if it has any effect. 

Mean while could you @JiiN report if changing spark plugs still helps? thank you

My car is Toyota Avensis Wagon 2010 Multidrive S T27 2zr-fae. Current ODO 289 000 km. Country: Finland

-Drift

 

 

Morjens driftaaja! 

My car hesitated too at lower rpm and it felt like there was no power at all at low rpm. It stalled at junctions etc very easily (manual). With cold engine that stalling problem didn't happen (higher rpm at idle).

I cleaned throttle body and MAP too but it didn't change car behaviour at all and both of those was pretty clean already. 

I always use 98 octane (5% ethanol) fuel and I've noticed that fuel consumption/price ratio is more reasonable with lower ethanol amount in fuel.

I highly recommend to You to change those spark plugs. Mine car had similar issues than Your and car behaviour changed a lot! And I recommend to get new spark plugs at Toyota to get OEM Denso. Motonet etc cheap spare part stores sell also Denso spark plugs but with little haggling You can get almost same price at Toyota and then You can be sure that they really are OEM Denso.

Btw, You need 14mm socket with extension (spark plugs) and 10mm socket (ignition coils). Normal longer 14mm socket without that rubber inside is just fine. You can pick those spark plugs out with using ignition coil after loosing those.

[avetoy]

 

1 hour ago, JiiN said:

I always use 98 octane (5% ethanol) fuel and I've noticed that fuel consumption/price ratio is more reasonable with lower ethanol amount in fuel.

That is absolutely true!

1 hour ago, JiiN said:

You can pick those spark plugs out with using ignition coil after loosing those.

Good tip! 

If you´re gonna do the plug job by yourself, perhaps you should still get a proper tool because you must not drop the new plug in its place (surely you already knew this).

[JiiN]

3 hours ago, avetoy said:

 

That is absolutely true!

Good tip! 

If you´re gonna do the plug job by yourself, perhaps you should still get a proper tool because you must not drop the new plug in its place (surely you already knew this).

I used ignition coil also when I was installing new ones. Just place spark plug slightly to ignition coil, place spark plug to it's place and give a little twist clockwise and lift ignition coil away. In my case they stayed there and then I tightened those with normal 14mm long socket.