Toyota corolla 1.8 hybrid 2020. Flat battery problem, replacement of...

[soldays]

Similar problems to other posts. Flat Battery 4 times. Toyota stress tested Battery, no problem! Apparently I need to do more/longer journeys.

Question: 1. what is the AmpHours of the standard Battery ?

and could it be replaced by a more heavy duty (greater amp hours) 12 volt battery (of the same dimensions) to resolve my/our problem?

Would doing this upgrade, maybe non toyota battery, invalidate toyota warranty?

 

[FROSTYBALLS]

Only the part of the warranty that covers the Battery will be affected - ie the replacement Battery won't be covered under the new car warranty. Then again a third party Battery should have some form of warranty from the third party.

As to whether a Toyota dealer will stress test a third party battery should problems re-occur is another question.

Also see:

 

[Trewithy]

I am pretty sure my Battery is 45AH.  Flat batteries are a long standing problem with Toyota (and other) hybrids, I can't understand why they do not fit a decent sized Battery from new.  It is most likely possible to get a bigger capacity Battery with the same physical dimensions.  Enquire at a battery specialist.

[TonyHSD]

3 hours ago, Trewithy said:

I am pretty sure my battery is 45AH.  Flat batteries are a long standing problem with Toyota (and other) hybrids, I can't understand why they do not fit a decent sized battery from new.  It is most likely possible to get a bigger capacity battery with the same physical dimensions.  Enquire at a battery specialist.

The problem with 12v Battery it’s not just down to their size imo, bigger one are no needed and also the bigger is the Battery the longer will need to be recharge and therefore it is not a good idea to go for bigger Battery when replacing yours, just stick with exactly the same specs. There are various options like solar battery chargers or smart ( trickle) chargers for car owners that does not use their cars often or long enough. 👍 I remember the days when some owners where requesting a bigger batteries replacement from diesel powered cars to their petrol equivalents and later to find out that the new bigger battery has died prematurely as per the above reason. 🪫👍

[Jiff]

Not an answer to the question, but why can't Toyota take a 12v feed from the 400v (or whatever it is) power Battery? It's my understanding that all large voltage batteries are just lots of small around 1.2v - 1.5v in series.

They could fit an emergency relay button so if the normal Battery was flat you could press it and get enough power from the big Battery to start the computer which would start the engine then the relay could shut off and you'd be back to normal.

If the big battery was flat that obviously wouldn't work either but I thought it'd take a long time to fully discharge that one..

I'm happy to be corrected on this if the idea is total rubbish. Perhaps the big battery goes flat quicker than the small one or something?

 

[Roy124]

Jiff, I believe the Kia Niro has such a system.  The instructions are not to jump start but press a reset button.  

[TonyHSD]

Toyota hybrid Battery are relatively small and a function like that can easily depleted the traction Battery and cause you even bigger issues since you need that Battery to start the engine and not the small 12v battery. Evs and some phev has much larger traction batteries and they can have that sort of functionality. Maybe in the future models Toyota will follow this trend., for now we have to take care of the battery charge., not a problem for a regular car user. 👍

[Roy124]

I disagree with Tony.  My dealer replaced my 45 AHr with the same dimension 52 AHr. 

Yes, it will take longer to charge but it will take longer to discharge too. 

16 days at a Meet and Greet car park and the company did not report any problems.  Five hours driving then off road for 10 days and Battery flat.  It just seems to happen. 

The options Tony mentioned, solar charger, trickle charger and I would add a small lithium jumper pack, are all worth considering. 

One proper solution would be to build a solar charger into the car.  The other is to reset from the hybrid Battery. 

Of course the hybrid is only a short term system obsolescent system. 

[Jiff]

Tony

I'd have thought the small amount of power required to run the computer for a minute would hardly deplete the traction Battery at all, so it could still then start the engine which would charge the 12v Battery and run the computer.

However as an alternative why not have a manual overide so that you can use the traction Battery to start the engine without the main computer. As soon as the engine is running the computer would boot an all would be back to normal.

Another alternative is to bring back the starting handle 😄 (I know that wouldn't work as computers run the engine). A real bonus on my Morris Traveller all those years ago.

[clix]

44 minutes ago, Jiff said:

Not an answer to the question, but why can't Toyota take a 12v feed from the 400v (or whatever it is) power battery? It's my understanding that all large voltage batteries are just lots of small around 1.2v - 1.5v in series.

They could fit an emergency relay button so if the normal battery was flat you could press it and get enough power from the big battery to start the computer which would start the engine then the relay could shut off and you'd be back to normal.

If the big battery was flat that obviously wouldn't work either but I thought it'd take a long time to fully discharge that one..

I'm happy to be corrected on this if the idea is total rubbish. Perhaps the big battery goes flat quicker than the small one or something?

 

This is due to the safety reason. Traction Battery (high voltage, < 200V ) is disconnected via relay, when car is OFF. When you turn it on, if everything is OK (diagnostics doesnt't return critical errors), it connects the traction Battery to the system. So if 12V Battery is flat, traction battery is disconnected, and can't be connected until 12V battery is charged.

[TonyHSD]

5 minutes ago, clix said:

This is due to the safety reason. Traction battery (high voltage, < 200V ) is disconnected via relay, when car is OFF. When you turn it on, if everything is OK (diagnostics doesnt't return critical errors), it connects the traction battery to the system. So if 12V battery is flat, traction battery is disconnected, and can't be connected until 12V battery is charged.

That’s right 👍

I meant you can’t draw power from the 200v Battery to recharge the small 12v Battery, some other makes can but they have a bigger Battery and again they might need to be over certain soc to do that. 

[TonyHSD]

43 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

I disagree with Tony.  My dealer replaced my 45 AHr with the same dimension 52 AHr. 

Yes, it will take longer to charge but it will take longer to discharge too. 

16 days at a Meet and Greet car park and the company did not report any problems.  Five hours driving then off road for 10 days and battery flat.  It just seems to happen. 

The options Tony mentioned, solar charger, trickle charger and I would add a small lithium jumper pack, are all worth considering. 

One proper solution would be to build a solar charger into the car.  The other is to reset from the hybrid battery. 

Of course the hybrid is only a short term system obsolescent system. 

Hi Roy, 

you maybe right a bigger Battery will discharge longer and it may work better for you. The difference between 45ah and 52ah not much anyway. The thing with a marginally bigger Battery like going from 45 to 62 or even more, is that then the charger (alternator or in our case inverter) may not be rated for that Battery at all and only send very little amount power of what actually the battery needs to be recharge properly. I am not an electrician and no argument 😉👍 

[Roy124]

Not sure, but your solar charger, in terms of power output, should be no different from the inverter output in that it will charge any size Battery over time. 

As far as the inverter possibly being limited, it would just be a function of time. 

It does seem that the Battery issue is a new issue and not simply one brought to light due to Covid. How many years have Toyota made Hybrids?  Has the Battery been an issue in the previous 20+ years? 

[TonyHSD]

9 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

Not sure, but your solar charger, in terms of power output, should be no different from the inverter output in that it will charge any size battery over time. 

As far as the inverter possibly being limited, it would just be a function of time. 

It does seem that the battery issue is a new issue and not simply one brought to light due to Covid. How many years have Toyota made Hybrids?  Has the battery been an issue in the previous 20+ years? 

Battery issues imo has always been and will be in all car makes not only Toyota hybrids. Battery does not like not to be used, they do like charge and discharge cycles to stay alive. Previous models also suffered same problems when they not been used regularly. They are slightly better though because had no connected services to keep constant power drains. 

[Jiff]

Just looked it up the traction Battery is Nickel-Metal hydride Battery so is probably 166 cells @ 1.2v each connected in series (199.2v). So 10 cells would give you 12v.

I realise you can't take a feed from the traction Battery the way things are set up at the moment, the question is why can't it be done.

It seems crazy to me that you can have some battery power left in the traction battery, but can't use that to fire up a computer for a couple of minutes to get the engine started and the car back on the road.

Obviously if the traction battery is flat as well it won't start the engine, but all the stories I've read is that it's the 12v battery which stops the car from starting, when its recharged, changed or jumped the traction battery still starts the engine.

It's like the scenario of starving in the desert surrounded by tinned food but not having a tin opener.

[Roy124]

Tony, my first car was a Ford Anglia.  What I knew of the car was limited to unlocking the door and key starting.  I had an extra, push button washer, single speed wiper and that was about it. 

I was sent away for 3 months.  I collected my car on return and away.  I gave no thought to my Battery. 

Even 25 years ago we had a large car park at work for long term parking - flat batteries was not a topic. 

The modern problem has been designed in. 

[Parts-King]

30 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

 

I was sent away for 3 months.  

 

Hope the porridge wasn't too bad 

[TonyHSD]

37 minutes ago, Roy124 said:

Tony, my first car was a Ford Anglia.  What I knew of the car was limited to unlocking the door and key starting.  I had an extra, push button washer, single speed wiper and that was about it. 

I was sent away for 3 months.  I collected my car on return and away.  I gave no thought to my battery. 

Even 25 years ago we had a large car park at work for long term parking - flat batteries was not a topic. 

The modern problem has been designed in. 

Oops, that had been long ago. I was thinking about my car old tech and your car as new tech, although they are very similar and only around 8-10 years difference. 🙂

[AndrueC]

8 hours ago, Roy124 said:

Tony, my first car was a Ford Anglia.  What I knew of the car was limited to unlocking the door and key starting.  I had an extra, push button washer, single speed wiper and that was about it. 

I was sent away for 3 months.  I collected my car on return and away.  I gave no thought to my battery. 

Even 25 years ago we had a large car park at work for long term parking - flat batteries was not a topic. 

The modern problem has been designed in. 

You can probably find some Ford Anglias for sale on the classics market if that's really the kind of motoring experience you'd prefer. Personally I prefer to have all the comforts and refinements of a modern vehicle.

Quite frankly I'd rather be stranded with a flat Battery than be forced to drive a car built to 1970s standards.

[Roy124]

On 4/22/2022 at 11:51 AM, Parts-King said:

Hope the porridge wasn't too bad 

Rice

Malaysia ⛱️

[Roy124]

18 hours ago, AndrueC said:

You can probably find some Ford Anglias for sale on the classics market if that's really the kind of motoring experience you'd prefer. Personally I prefer to have all the comforts and refinements of a modern vehicle.

Quite frankly I'd rather be stranded with a flat battery than be forced to drive a car built to 1970s standards.

60s, screen wash was an extra, half pint plastic bag and manual push button.  No radio, floor lining rubber, plastic seat went back and forth.  Seat back tippex to let back seat pax in. Nothing under the bonnet except masses of open space and a 39 bhp engine.  Crossply tyres. 

One refinement was the fibre tray under the engine. 

Only got the Anglia new as the bank manager would not loan me money for a 2nd hand Cortina. 

[AndrueC]

I remember my Mum's pale blue Anglia. It got her to the shops and work and was (occasionally) used to ferry me to school. I understand the concept of nostalgia but I mainly grew up in the 80s so I prefer to look forward to what might be 🙂

For sure the 1970s is nothing to look back on with pride or pleasure 😄

[Hibird]

On 4/22/2022 at 10:35 AM, Roy124 said:

Not sure, but your solar charger, in terms of power output, should be no different from the inverter output in that it will charge any size battery over time. 

As far as the inverter possibly being limited, it would just be a function of time. 

It does seem that the battery issue is a new issue and not simply one brought to light due to Covid. How many years have Toyota made Hybrids?  Has the battery been an issue in the previous 20+ years? 

I have kept my Yaris and now CHR Battery in good shape with a solar charger (when there at least bright skies). The solar panel I use is 20w unit but does fit on top of the dashboard ok. A smaller panel will not give enough power on cloudier days to do what is needed but a charge controller is needed to cope with those sunny days and prevent overcharging..

For what it's worth I think many batteries are damaged due to overdisharge prior to delivery so you are up against it from day one.

I observed a Toyota dealer jump starting 4 S/H CHR's on there forecourt I can only draw my own conclusions as to their Battery charging policy !

[TonyHSD]

31 minutes ago, Hibird said:

I have kept my Yaris and now CHR battery in good shape with a solar charger (when there at least bright skies). The solar panel I use is 20w unit but does fit on top of the dashboard ok. A smaller panel will not give enough power on cloudier days to do what is needed but a charge controller is needed to cope with those sunny days and prevent overcharging..

For what it's worth I think many batteries are damaged due to overdisharge prior to delivery so you are up against it from day one.

I observed a Toyota dealer jump starting 4 S/H CHR's on there forecourt I can only draw my own conclusions as to their battery charging policy !

Couldn’t agreed more about the Battery on new cars. I think the best practice in this case if the new car owner it’s not about to drive a lot to properly charge the Battery with external charger prior to its regular use. 👍 

About the solar chargers, did they not have a charge controller built in, if not they can well overcharge and cause even fire? 

[Corollanutter]

In the "olden days" (1980's and 90's..) some new vehicles came with a "transit link" in the main fuse box which was pulled when the car was in storage or transit. It disconnected all uneccessary electrics to prevent the problem we now see on hybrids when they are unused for just a few weeks. I changed the Battery on my used 1.8TS after a few weeks of ownership as the voltage measurements were indicating a very weak Battery that was not holding a charge. Not something you should have to do on a car only two years old. As the vehicle had a decent mileage on it when purchased (23K) it was probably not caused by lack of use, but more likely by the design of the vehicles' electrical and charging system.