Strange wobbling and vibration in 2013 T27 1.8L Valvematic with CVT.

[avetoy]

I´m glad your problems have solved!

I would not have believed that Avensis is so picky about shock absorbers...

[slc79]

4 hours ago, avetoy said:

I´m glad your problems have solved!

I would not have believed that Avensis is so picky about shock absorbers...

It may not necessarily be the Avensis that is picky about it, but me. I may just not be built to drive a car the responds so instant and harsh to every curve in the road. The car is still respsonding to the same curves, but it's being softened out as the absorbers feels "slower" (in lack of a better word in my vocabulary). I'm very thankful to the Toyota mechanic who pointed out the front shocks looked fairly new, or else I'd still not know where to look as noone found any faults with the car itself.

[Konrad C]

20 hours ago, slc79 said:

It may not necessarily be the Avensis that is picky about it, but me. I may just not be built to drive a car the responds so instant and harsh to every curve in the road. The car is still respsonding to the same curves, but it's being softened out as the absorbers feels "slower" (in lack of a better word in my vocabulary). I'm very thankful to the Toyota mechanic who pointed out the front shocks looked fairly new, or else I'd still not know where to look as noone found any faults with the car itself.

I don't think you are picky at all. As I said in an earlier reply, the 'new' non-Toyota shocks were a mismatch to the car. I rather have a slightly cushioned ride, than a rock hard jarring ride. It made no difference to the handling as you stated, and the proper Toyota shocks have proved that. 
 

[kiddo]

Do you guys the shock absorbers brand Sachs , I've read some reviews they are some of the most comparable to the oem Toyota ?

[TonyHSD]

3 hours ago, kiddo said:

Do you guys the shock absorbers brand Sachs , I've read some reviews they are some of the most comparable to the oem Toyota ?

I have two Sachs for the rear, but I haven’t fit them yet and don’t know if they are any good. They use to be one of the best brands and also fitted in factory from many car manufacturers.
What I noticed on the box is written Made in China instead of eu Germany as it used to be but these days everything comes from there.
Will check my one first if ok may skip changing the shocks, but if they need replacement I will fit and if any good will replace the front ones with sachs too. All that for the rear on Auris hybrid 2010. 

[Lloyd W]

Yes I have a similar fault with my Auris hybrid estate. Possibly the same thing. At certain times irrelevant of speed a vibration starts. I can feel it through the seat and the steering wheel. I noticed it the very next day after I bought the car (2nd hand) from a Toyota dealership. I took it back immediately and they asked for the right to put it right. Since then it has never gone away. I have been told it might be the way I drive it? Or that it has been standing for a while? Finally the dealership has acknowledged there is something wrong and asked me to leave the car with them. Currently they have had my car for 6 weeks and 4 days without solving the problem. It is 6 months since I first reported the fault.

[slc79]

I kinda hate contributing to this thread again, and I thought I wouldn't as I suspect you all are a bit tired of this problem car.

It did feel fine for some time, but now it's worse than ever. It's very jumpy and feels like it's jerking and juddering a lot. I have eliminated transmission and engine, because after conferring with Toyota, they told me I could indeed safely put the car in Neutral while troubleshooting as long as I did NOT turn off the engine. Putting the car in N does not change this wobbling, so I am ruling those components out. Nothing wrong can be seen under the car either, but several people mentions to me that this sounds a bit like an issue with drive shafts. Especially when I mentioned it feels like it's more intense while driving uphills. The frustrating thing with this is, every little thing I've done with the car did help slightly, but problems do not vanish completely.

I'm very interested in hearing how the story with the Auris pans out...

[TonyHSD]

16 hours ago, slc79 said:

I kinda hate contributing to this thread again, and I thought I wouldn't as I suspect you all are a bit tired of this problem car.

It did feel fine for some time, but now it's worse than ever. It's very jumpy and feels like it's jerking and juddering a lot. I have eliminated transmission and engine, because after conferring with Toyota, they told me I could indeed safely put the car in Neutral while troubleshooting as long as I did NOT turn off the engine. Putting the car in N does not change this wobbling, so I am ruling those components out. Nothing wrong can be seen under the car either, but several people mentions to me that this sounds a bit like an issue with drive shafts. Especially when I mentioned it feels like it's more intense while driving uphills. The frustrating thing with this is, every little thing I've done with the car did help slightly, but problems do not vanish completely.

I'm very interested in hearing how the story with the Auris pans out...

Yes, can be inner drive shafts that causes these nasty vibrations, however inner drive shafts usually cause vibrations when under acceleration., torque transmitted to the drive wheels, when free rolling they are unloaded and should not cause vibrations, or at least not as pronounced. Front and rear callipers issues very likely to cause vibrations, inner or outer tie road ends, ball joints, suspension arm bushing, transmission and engine mounts. Engine misfire due to a blockage in the egr system also can cause vibrations. 

[slc79]

24 minutes ago, TonyHSD said:

Yes, can be inner drive shafts that causes these nasty vibrations, however inner drive shafts usually cause vibrations when under acceleration., torque transmitted to the drive wheels, when free rolling they are unloaded and should not cause vibrations, or at least not as pronounced. Front and rear callipers issues very likely to cause vibrations, inner or outer tie road ends, ball joints, suspension arm bushing, transmission and engine mounts. Engine misfire due to a blockage in the egr system also can cause vibrations. 

 

If calipers had caused the vibrations I suppose it would be noticed by wheels not spinning freely?
I do not think engine is misfiring either, because it runs smoothly when idling. I totally forgot about making a video of this, I will do when it stops raining. But I don't think the source of the problem lies there. Misfires would eventually also trigger an error code, I think? No error codes stored in the car at all.

But since the problem is getting worse, hopefully something can break visibly soon. It feels like constantly hitting very small rocks. Car also feels somewhat unstable on the highway. Not to a dangerous extent, but it feels like it is tracking a bit. I recently had the wheels aligned and it was way off, but the odd thing is that I don't FEEL much difference from before and after.

[avetoy]

31 minutes ago, slc79 said:

...I recently had the wheels aligned and it was way off, but the odd thing is that I don't FEEL much difference from before and after...

Same experience here. Toyota mechanic told me that if he would adjust the wheel alignments so that there would be no tracking at all, I have to be prepared excessive tire wear. I believed him, he has T27 station wagon too...

I did once own a Celica and it had some problems with front calibers (slide pins). The brakes were a little jammed and as they got hot they jammed more and caused vibrations. But that was just very obvious.

Have you tried to drive on a dynamometer? 

[slc79]

4 minutes ago, avetoy said:

Have you tried to drive on a dynamometer? 

I'm trying to arrange for that since that could potentially rule out a whole lot of things, but it's so ridiculously expensive. I've been quoted what would be an equivalent of £200 and I feel that's a bit steep for what I really want. They also suggested a "20 point check" .. they gave me a price for that, but no information about what it includes.

And yeah, the tracking itself I can live with.. so if this is how it's got to be then it is what it is. I just found it odd that when it was so off as it is that I didn't really notice any difference before and after. I've attached a photo of the results. It's a bit hard to see some of it, but you get a pretty good view of the numbers before alignment 🙂

[TonyHSD]

7 minutes ago, avetoy said:

Same experience here. Toyota mechanic told me that if he would adjust the wheel alignments so that there would be no tracking at all, I have to be prepared excessive tire wear. I believed him, he has T27 station wagon too...

I did once own a Celica and it had some problems with front calibers (slide pins). The brakes were a little jammed and as they got hot they jammed more and caused vibrations. But that was just very obvious.

Have you tried to drive on a dynamometer? 

That’s what I am talking about the brakes. When you lift up in the air the wheels will spin but not freely because of stick pins and or pistons who does not retract properly and will cause DTV, which can only come evident when braking hard from high speed or when travelling at certain speeds. I had spent hours even days investigating these problems. As op describes unstable behaviour on motorways need to look at inner and outer tie rod ends, ball joints and suspension arm bushing. When car is at speed these get loaded and if rubber has been deteriorated ( softer than usual or cut free from its metal circumference housing) it will unset the wheel alignment and cause vibrations. Mot like test on all suspension parts for excess movement, visual and hand check with wheels on the platform lifting, not in the air, when the car is jacked up on lifts with wheels in the air those gets compressed and won’t show defects or wear. Best to look into that. My car still has some vibrations at around 55-60mph and more pronounced at high winds. , perhaps has bushing aged but not excessively therefore I am keeping it like that until needed new. 👍

[avetoy]

1 hour ago, slc79 said:

They also suggested a "20 point check" ..

That would probably have been a waste of money?

I don´t know what the price level is around here, but £200 for dyno test sounds too expensive anyway. 

 

[slc79]

On 7/25/2022 at 4:36 PM, avetoy said:

That would probably have been a waste of money?

I don´t know what the price level is around here, but £200 for dyno test sounds too expensive anyway. 

 

I totally agree, which is why I am a bit hesitant about that. They wanted £150 for the 20 point check too which is absolutely unacceptable when they don't mention what it includes. Once it is something less trivial to find, it seems most just wants you to throw money at doing all the basic stuff that doesn't even have anything to do with the problem, even if it was already checked out multiple times. I have yet to find a mechanic who have the slightest idea what is going on with the car, and they are all very eager to tell me it requires hours of troubleshooting and random parts swapping.

[avetoy]

Perhaps this is a silly idea (again), but what if you would lift the front wheels off the ground and place the supports as near the wheels as possible so the drive shafts would be at a normal angle. Then you (or a friend) could "drive" the car at different speeds and check if there are any symptoms? 

[slc79]

On 7/27/2022 at 2:50 PM, avetoy said:

Perhaps this is a silly idea (again), but what if you would lift the front wheels off the ground and place the supports as near the wheels as possible so the drive shafts would be at a normal angle. Then you (or a friend) could "drive" the car at different speeds and check if there are any symptoms? 

Idea sounds reasonable, but I don't feel either competent or comfortable doing it myself. My father, previously working with fixing cars that had been in collisions (I'd love to know the proper English word for this profession btw 🙂 ), said that even if drive shafts have no visible wear and tear it could actually be slightly bent out of shape, so the test you suggested would possibly be a way to check for that. It may or may not be the case, but I would have liked to have it checked out.

[slc79]

On 5/25/2022 at 2:46 AM, TOYOpeter said:

Sorry to hear you are still struggling with this. Could you take a video of the engine bay while the car is on? 

Just checking if I can hear anything strange compared with my car, which is identical to yours.

I finally got around to doing this... the file is quite big (almost 100MB) so I just uploaded it to my own server.

https://colaku.com/~tomsk/engine.mp4

[slc79]

One more update. This is pointing more and more towards the drive shaft on right hand side, which apparently isn't an uncommon point of failure. My question now is, why the **** didn't any of the previous work shops that looked SPECIFICALLY for any reason the car was a bumpy ride, and how was the Toyota shop the ONLY one who didn't feel anything abnormal? Both left and right shafts looks like could need a replacement in long term, but the right looked as if it was not entirely straight. This WOULD actually explain the wobble.

As a funny side note, the mechanic that looked at my car now owns a T25 which is lowered almost to the max and it's so stiff that if you try to push the car from the outside only the rubber on the wheels appears to move. And guess what, this care STILL drove softer than my T27 with no styling or performance parts installed. I'm not insane! It IS broken! 😛 He is going to have a look at the technical drawings of the assembly and get back to me when he's been able to further back his theories about what is wrong. Finally someone who just doesn't guess. But again, I'm furious that so many work shops inspected even the shafts without seeing any sign of wear. It also sucks that the extended used car warrany would have covered the shafts but that they closed the case before an actual cause was found.

[avetoy]

10 hours ago, slc79 said:

Both left and right shafts looks like could need a replacement in long term, but the right looked as if it was not entirely straight.

I wonder how that shaft could have been bent...

Or could it just be faulty inner joint?

Anyway, it is good that you found a responsible mechanic!

[slc79]

3 hours ago, avetoy said:

I wonder how that shaft could have been bent...

Or could it just be faulty inner joint?

Anyway, it is good that you found a responsible mechanic!

It's most likely the inner joint that is about to give in, yes. It was quite corroded and when this fails it was apparently not uncommon for the shaft to get slightly out of position, especially on the right side because that one is the longest. I did some reading and apparently this is also one way a transmission can fail, so I'm wondering if this may have been like this for some time and was the initial cause of the previous transmission failing...

[TonyHSD]

How can you tell the inner shafts are at fault from seen them outside? I don’t think that is possible unless physical damage has occurred as a result of an accident. Inner shafts can wear and cause vibrations under acceleration mostly but not bumpy ride. If the shaft is out of the differential bearing it will cause premature wear quickly and diff failure accompanied by horrible whining. These drive shafts components rarely fail unless physically damaged or rubber boots failed or neglected. Also very important to know that aftermarket drive shafts in Toyota cars does not go well, vibrations are likely. Bumpy ride common issue is shocks , springs , suspension bushes  or tyres.  

[slc79]

1 hour ago, TonyHSD said:

How can you tell the inner shafts are at fault from seen them outside? I don’t think that is possible unless physical damage has occurred as a result of an accident. Inner shafts can wear and cause vibrations under acceleration mostly but not bumpy ride. If the shaft is out of the differential bearing it will cause premature wear quickly and diff failure accompanied by horrible whining. These drive shafts components rarely fail unless physically damaged or rubber boots failed or neglected. Also very important to know that aftermarket drive shafts in Toyota cars does not go well, vibrations are likely. Bumpy ride common issue is shocks , springs , suspension bushes  or tyres.  

It can be observed by lifting the car and spinning the wheels. The point of failure is often the so called tripod but it will be more obvious the further out you go (for example all the way to the wheel) from what I was told. In addition, there aren't many places left where this can stem from, because pretty much everything else is checked and ruled out. In addition, several people are now mentioning the drive shaft when explaining the symptoms to them or if they test drive the car. The components you mention is ruled out, so is the engine and transmission. Apart from the drive shaft, what else is actually left?

[slc79]

So... I took the care to a tyre shop and asked kindly if they could lift up the car and check the drive shafts for me.... now, what we saw with engine running and accelerator pressed down was absolutely shocking. It was wobbly as h*ll. It wasn't subtle at all... I am now seriously starting to question car work shops around here. I've had no less than FOUR shops looking at this, including one Toyota, who was supposed to troubleshoot this specific problem and EVERY SINGLE ONE OF THEM overlooked a shaft that must have been nearly shaped as a banana. It was horrible and I got to see it myself.. I could recognise the movement from what I felt in my car.

It turned out it was the left side, not the right. So, note to self: first place to visit when having car problems is this tyre shop! They were as surprised as me to see something this blatantly obvious was overlooked by so many. INCLUDING the shop that replaced my shocks. They SHOULD have seen it when disassembling it. I'm both relieved and frustrated at the same time now. So @avetoy ... your idea wasn't only not bad, it was eventually what solved the mystery.

I was also told by another technician who was present that could inform me that if not being careful disassembling the struts when replacing shocks, you may very well end up bending the shaft and this looked like a classical example of this. So a previous owner may actually have caused this while replacing the front shocks.

[slc79]

This will be the final final final update on this post! I promise. I wanted to wait bringing you the latest update until I was 100% sure. The changing of the left hand drive shaft was what eventually resolved the last of it. It still felt a bit stiff so I wanted to dig a bit more around, and now finally got the opportunity to test drive a 2016 Avensis with same motor and transmission. Due to being newer and having a lot less mileage on it, it felt tighter in general, but the characteristics of the driving itself was identical. I hereby declare case closed. It took some time, but finally there.... this time for real. I hope this can be of any help to anyone at a later point. Thanks for your patience and good ideas along the way. Highly appreciated 🙂