EU trying to ban PHEV’s from 2025….

[Flatcoat]

The wonderful EU in the face of threats of escalating war from Russia and other problems affecting food supplies and onset of deep recession can apparently find the time to bring in legislation that will effectively ban new PHEV’s from 2025. The car industry is stunned and trying to fight back although have accepted it’s a lost cause. Apparently the EU want manufacturers to sell BEV’s at a rate of 3 or 4 times the number of ICE cars by 2025. Nothing like getting your priorities right. I shake my head in disbelief. 

[ernieb]

It’s so much easier to worry about these kind of issue than face the really big problems the EU is facing like where they are going to get the energy to charge these cars.  It also makes work for the hundreds of thousands employed at great cost to justify their existence.

[AJones]

From the news articles I can find, the EU is not proposing to ban PHEVs but it is looking at the assumptions around how much mileage is done on electric vs fuel when calculating PHEV emissions.

If the current assumptions are not accurate and don't reflect real world usage then updating them seem reasonable.

[nlee]

Yes, unfortunately the powers that be see PHEVs as a distraction to people moving to BEVs, rather than a transition while people get their head around things like range anxiety and charging infrastructure challenges.

Personally, I wouldn't have bought a BEV when I got the PHEV, I'd have stuck with a normal petrol or diesel or possibly a normal hybrid for another 5 or so years. I'm probably not getting as much as some others due to typical journey profiles but still have 65% distance and 75% time as EV (this will included some benefit of being HEV at times). That has to be a decent environmental benefit going in the right direction and worth having.

[APS]

From what I can see there is no mention of banning PHEV. There is a proposal to update the WLTP testing methodology to better reflect real world emissions from these vehicles. The proposed update of the testing protocol is 2025. Yes, the net effect may well be that manufacturers will have to sell more EVs to weigh up PHEV emissions - just as they have done with pure ICE powered cars.

 

[Broadway One]

37 minutes ago, nlee said:

Yes, unfortunately the powers that be see PHEVs as a distraction to people moving to BEVs, rather than a transition while people get their head around things like range anxiety and charging infrastructure challenges.

Personally, I wouldn't have bought a BEV when I got the PHEV, I'd have stuck with a normal petrol or diesel or possibly a normal hybrid for another 5 or so years.

Hi all.....There are 1000's of retirees like me that welcome an intermediate transition to BEV.

At time of purchase I reckoned on a 5/10 year window for PHEV's.

Retired means mostly suburban miles with a longish journey now & again.

The RAV (46mls) with convenient home charging is the perfect fit in my case.

I have no desire to move to a BEV in the foreseeable. 

Barry Wright, Lancashire.  

  

[Guest]

I can't believe nobody talks about the fact that most of the electricity generated for electric cars is going to come from gas and coal power stations... renewable sources (except nuclear) just can't provide practically for an entire nation, even one as relatively small as the UK.  

Other than emissions in cities like London, and on some models, a fun to drive experience, are there any actual advantages? Everything else is a drawback. 

[ernieb]

On 5/30/2022 at 11:56 AM, Broadway One said:

Hi all.....There are 1000's of retirees like me that welcome an intermediate transition to BEV.

At time of purchase I reckoned on a 5/10 year window for PHEV's.

Retired means mostly suburban miles with a longish journey now & again.

The RAV (46mls) with convenient home charging is the perfect fit in my case.

I have no desire to move to a BEV in the foreseeable. 

Barry Wright, Lancashire.  

I mirror you situation and certainly look at the PHEV as at least 5 years.

[flash22]

TBH a lot of the PHEV's are a token gesture to fudge the numbers - looking at you MB

[nlee]

1 hour ago, SB1500 said:

I can't believe nobody talks about the fact that most of the electricity generated for electric cars is going to come from gas and coal power stations... renewable sources (except nuclear) just can't provide practically for an entire nation, even one as relatively small as the UK.  

Other than emissions in cities like London, and on some models, a fun to drive experience, are there any actual advantages? Everything else is a drawback. 

You are right that the impact of zero emissions are more relevant at a local level but there is still a significant net CO2 emissions benefit overall (excluding any arguements over manufacturing!)

For my region yesterday, the breakdown of electricity produced was ...

38.8% wind, 24.5% nuclear, 20.7% gas, 9.2% hydro, 4.9% solar, 1.1% biomass, 0.8% imports and 0.0% coal. So 54% renewables, 24.5% nuclear and 20.7 fossil fuels (plus whatever the little bit of imports are made up of).

I charge in the early hours at low demand so you'd hope that's a better mix of renewables but the average of the above mix is about 125g CO2/kWh. Burning petrol is around 240g CO2/kWh.

Edit: The national mix was 125g/kWh, the regional mix above equates to 86g/kWh.

[APS]

10 hours ago, SB1500 said:

I can't believe nobody talks about the fact that most of the electricity generated for electric cars is going to come from gas and coal power stations... renewable sources (except nuclear) just can't provide practically for an entire nation, even one as relatively small as the UK.  

Other than emissions in cities like London, and on some models, a fun to drive experience, are there any actual advantages? Everything else is a drawback. 

As Nigel showed, the power mix in the UK is made up from a significant portion of renewables. Currently there are only three coal fired power plants left in the UK. These are due to be closed in 2022 (Sept.), 2023, and 2024. 

Gas (and nuclear) can easily vary its output to cope with changes in demand. This is also where hydroelectric is extremely useful as it can go from 0 to 100% output in a matter of minutes. 

Advantages of electric cars? Lower service/running cost. Better reliability. Quieter. Much more flexible power delivery. You can generate your own energy. 

[Spo2]

21 minutes ago, APS said:

As Nigel showed, the power mix in the UK is made up from a significant portion of renewables. Currently there are only three coal fired power plants left in the UK. These are due to be closed in 2022 (Sept.), 2023, and 2024. 

Gas (and nuclear) can easily vary its output to cope with changes in demand. This is also where hydroelectric is extremely useful as it can go from 0 to 100% output in a matter of minutes. 

Advantages of electric cars? Lower service/running cost. Better reliability. Quieter. Much more flexible power delivery. You can generate your own energy. 

I am not sure about the low service cost, that might be in theory. When i checked service cost t of some EVs, i found them no cheaper than conventional ICE vehicles. I might be wrong though. 

[Mike2222]

From the autocar online article, it would seem the Toyota HSD phevs will be better positioned to survive any changes to the testing system, seeing as it still operates as a regular hybrid one the ev-only range is depleted, and maintains ev-only propulsion at very high throttle input & legal road speeds. Or certainly will survive longer than other manufacturers design, where it genuinely is a case of "deplete the Battery, then rely on a small turbocharged petrol engine to lug around the Battery & [likely SUV] chassis".

[IanML]

The PHEV will not die, but the ICE part will be replaced by a hydrogen fuel-cell.  You might think that, with hydrogen, why top up the Battery by plugging in, but I expect it will be cheaper to get some of the energy from the grid than all from the hydrogen.

[nlee]

To be fair, the WLTP for PHEVs could do with reviewing, after all, I don't hear many getting the quoted 282 mpg on here! It's good but not that good!

WLTP for PHEVs is complicated because you can't predict individual journey profiles and how people charge. The calculation assumes the average journey starts with a full charge and is the EV range plus a standard 25km, so for the RAV4 about 99km (62 miles in old money). It then applies a weighting factor based on the range, as the bigger the range, the less likely to use the ICE on the average journey.

It's probably not the best reflection of an "average journey" for most and would require around 75%+ EV use by distance. Back calculating on the quoted range and mpg for the RAV, it looks like it's using around 60 mpg when in HEV mode. Possible, but maybe on the optimistic side.

[ernieb]

Out of interest my last years EV distance was 72% and 129mpg.

[forkingabout]

22 hours ago, flash22 said:

TBH a lot of the PHEV's are a token gesture to fudge the numbers - looking at you MB

You only have to visit a certain Peugeot forum & the PHEV sections to see that is 100% true 😉

[Nick72]

On 5/30/2022 at 10:37 AM, Flatcoat said:

The wonderful EU in the face of threats of escalating war from Russia and other problems affecting food supplies and onset of deep recession can apparently find the time to bring in legislation that will effectively ban new PHEV’s from 2025. The car industry is stunned and trying to fight back although have accepted it’s a lost cause. Apparently the EU want manufacturers to sell BEV’s at a rate of 3 or 4 times the number of ICE cars by 2025. Nothing like getting your priorities right. I shake my head in disbelief. 

It is idiotic of the highest order. Perhaps this is knee ***** panic to their critical oil and gas dependency on Russia. Hence they want to tie motorists into electrical energy means to give the EU some room for maneuver in their energy supply make up.

[Yugguy1970]

I can only find articles from a year or more back about this.

[APS]

The protocols are updated at a five year cadence. Last WLTP came into effect in 2020. 

 

[flash22]

Kia state side - https://www.torquenews.com/16317/why-kia-will-slowly-ramp-down-phev-production-starting-next-year

i suspect the reason that some phev's will go is purely based on upcoming emission changes (Euro 7) for 2025/26

https://www.acea.auto/publication/acea-proposals-for-euro-7-and-euro-vii-emission-standards/

this will make a lot of current engines non-compliant for new models, this happened to the yaris in 2017 they dropped the 1.3 in favour of the 1.5 to make compliance

[Mike2222]

3 hours ago, Yugguy1970 said:

I can only find articles from a year or more back about this.

https://www.autocar.co.uk/car-news/consumer/new-eu-emissions-rules-accelerate-decline-plug-hybrids

[Cyker]

The amusing thing is if they do that, I suspect most HEVs will have a better CO2 rating than the equivalent PHEV!   

But, will it affect things here? Or will we get the 'polluting' cars they don't want for cheap?  

[Lawnmowerman]

9 hours ago, ernieb said:

Out of interest my last years EV distance was 72% and 129mpg.

MyT app says I have EV distance 73% and 138mpg. Interestingly it says average EV time of 78%.

I'm surprised how close it is to yours Ernie.

[ernieb]

9 hours ago, Lawnmowerman said:

MyT app says I have EV distance 73% and 138mpg. Interestingly it says average EV time of 78%.

I'm surprised how close it is to yours Ernie.

My EV time is 83%.  For me it’s a lot of short trips with regular, every few weeks, bursts up and down parts of the M1. I’d suggest this is the ideal sort of driving pattern for a PHEV.