To rotate, or not to rotate (with TPMS)?

[CurranShelter]

Auris needs new shoes (205/55/R16), and with that I'm reminded that last time I asked the tyre guy to rotate them, I was told that it couldn't or shouldn't be done because it can mess up the TPMS. I was in no position to argue at the time, but I'd rather check the facts beforehand this time. So, is there any truth in this or should I dig my heels in?

 

 

[CurranShelter]

p.s. I've also been told by at least one tyre fitter to have the best tread on the front, even though most manufacturers seem to advise the opposite for FWD cars, so I do wonder if there's some outdated 'wisdom' lingering around out there (perhaps along with a fair amount of 'CBA').

[Stivino]

The advice to put the best tyres on the rear applies to all cars.

The advice from your tyre fitter is out of date.

[AndrueC]

The rear wheels are more likely to lose traction under braking as weight shifts toward the front and your options to recover are limited.

Front tyres get pressed into the road by weight shift under braking so loss of traction is less likely and if you do lose it you have a chance to recover by steering appropriately.

Thus it makes more sense to have the 'best' tyres at the rear to try and reduce the risk.

The only TPMS problem I can think of is if your car can tell you which tyre is low it might report incorrectly. But if the car can only give a general pressure warning ('one or more tyres is low') it doesn't matter which sensor is on which wheel.

[Tomv]

I think that Toyota's TPMS system is not "smart" and will not tell you which wheel has problem, so you can rotate without any problem

[Cyker]

The system on my Mk4 tells me shows the pressures on each wheel and can tell which sensor is on which wheel after I've driven for a bit and it's able to ping them all...

[Mike2222]

8 hours ago, CurranShelter said:

p.s. I've also been told by at least one tyre fitter to have the best tread on the front, even though most manufacturers seem to advise the opposite for FWD cars, so I do wonder if there's some outdated 'wisdom' lingering around out there (perhaps along with a fair amount of 'CBA').

I'm assuming here from the phrasing, that you're intending to replace the tyres of one axle only (ie 2 tyres, rather than all 4)? The purpose/goal of rotation is to try to ensure that all tyres wear evenly, to get maximum life out of all 4 and change simultaneously, and/or to prevent significant discrepancies in tread depth leading to traction issues (esp in wet/cold/snow/ice). Also, whilst changing 2 rather than all 4 tyres is common, be careful if planning to mix & match tyre types, or designs with significantly different traction properties. 

 

8 hours ago, AndrueC said:

The rear wheels are more likely to lose traction under braking as weight shifts toward the front and your options to recover are limited.

Front tyres get pressed into the road by weight shift under braking so loss of traction is less likely and if you do lose it you have a chance to recover by steering appropriately.

Thus it makes more sense to have the 'best' tyres at the rear to try and reduce the risk. 

Whilst this is true, assuming we're not talking about tyres that are practically bald or old (eg >5-6yrs), and one is not hooning it about like a lunatic, for a fwd car one would assumed the front set will wear faster than rear, so putting deeper tread on front makes economical sense, and then rotate as necessary to even things out. Theoretically, putting the new/best tyres on the rear of a fwd car could actually exacerbate the tread depth mismatch between the two axles. 

[Mike2222]

9 hours ago, CurranShelter said:

Auris needs new shoes (205/55/R16)

FWIW, blackcircles are having a flash sale on Michelins today, and I massively rate crossclimates & the new crossclimate2s. I have them in your size on my other car (nissan Leaf) and they're a decent price after the discount. Depending on where in Derbyshire you are, winter snow is not unusual and they're very competent in the dry & wet are non-winter temps also. 

Edited May 31, 2022 by Mike2222
Autocorrect

[Tomv]

6 hours ago, Cyker said:

The system on my Mk4 tells me shows the pressures on each wheel and can tell which sensor is on which wheel after I've driven for a bit and it's able to ping them all...

On my car the system itself can read pressures on each wheel, but its only available with Carista and similar apps via OBD.   On the dash it only show general warning without telling you which wheel has problem. I think on Auris it will be the same as on Corolla.

[APS]

11 hours ago, CurranShelter said:

p.s. I've also been told by at least one tyre fitter to have the best tread on the front, even though most manufacturers seem to advise the opposite for FWD cars, so I do wonder if there's some outdated 'wisdom' lingering around out there (perhaps along with a fair amount of 'CBA').

The short answer is both has pros and cons.

Tyre manufacturers will advice based on legal requirements and safety in all conditions.

More tread is better in wet and snowy conditions. Losing traction at the front first (understeer) could be considered safer as it is easier to handle.

In the dry, less tread actually gives you better grip.

Personally, I like to have most tread at the front on FWD, because I really want to avoid aquaplaning there.

The bottom line is (obviously!) you should make sure you have good tyres all round. 

Re TPMS - I've no experience on the Toyotas. On BMW you just do a TPMS reset and it works out where each wheel is and the correct pressure for each. So, there may be a similar function on Toyota. I assume they all use the same, or similar TPMS.

[Roy124]

Yesterday, inspired by an Honest John Survey, I checked my tyre pressures.  It was quite some time since my service (March) and I had not checked them since.

The first tyre I checked was a front tyre and its cold PSI was 27.5 rather than the recommended 33.  There had been no TPMS warning even though the pressure was 5.5 psi too low.  I had to use the car before checking the other tyres but did so when I got home though they were warm.

I set the other 3 wheels to 3 psi overpressure.  I checked them when cold this morning and they were within 0.5 psi.

Two lessons:

1.  check at least monthly

2. don't assume the TPMS will warn up.

[FROSTYBALLS]

TPMS systems commonly warn when there is around a 20% drop in pressure. Presumably your system would have reacted when the pressure came down to around 25-26.

 

[Roy124]

As the front and rear pressures on a Corolla are 10% different it would follow that no reset of TPMS is required if tyres are rotated. 

[Cyker]

It depends when they were reset, as they take that as the baseline pressure I believe, so if you 'overinflate' them there's even more margin before the sensor warning kick in.

Also, and this is an absolutely trivial thing, but does it annoy anyone else that they call it "TPWS" in the manual? Because at first I was searching for TPMS info in the manual and it found nothing and I was like, that's weird. And that's the only place they use that, everywhere else including their website it's TPMS!!

[Roy124]

I guess, in a way, it is really TPWS as it is just a yes/no.  TPMS implies you can actively monitor it. 

We have a FCMS which incorporates a FCWS. 

Maybe we should get everything changed to TPWS.  😁

[DaveAlan]

For many years I worked in the tyre industry, on normal vehicles if you want the car to handle best in a slide, the new tyres should be fitted on the rear, assuming if two tyres are fitted and the others are around half worn. It’s more about being able to control a slide and it’s easier to pull the car back under control by lifting the throttle with this configuration. The other way around encourages the rear to continue to slide out potentially to loose complete control, irrespective of how your TPMS works, this is the best fitment and TPMS will possibly need resetting as Manufacturers Recommendations if required.