Electric socket flap................

[Flatcoat]

49 minutes ago, Cyker said:

It is a bit weird... it would have made sense for a 7.4kW charger or 22kWh charger, but what makes 11kWh??

Even in the US, if you were going to hook up 3-phase, I'm sure the installer would use the full 220v and not the weird split-110v

 

On the other hand it takes 2 minutes to give my Yaris 500 miles of range, so I think home charging is still very very needed until an EV has that sort of ability. I already resent having to go out of my way to a petrol station every week or two - The idea of having to do it every few days AND be stuck there for half an hour each time is extremely off-putting.

If they put chargers in supermarkets, then at least I'm not wasting my time charging the car as I can do some shopping too, but the idiotic strategy that's been chosen is dedicated charging areas where all you can do is drink overpriced coffee and twiddle your thumbs.

From my point of view, home and/or workplace charging is currently an essential pre-requisite of owning an EV... Without it the experience is just so much worse - You're overcharged for the electricity and it's a colossal waste of your time.

On a long road trip, sure - You'd probably have to stop anyway after 3-400 miles to stretch your legs so that wouldn't be much of an imposition, but on a regular basis? I'd much rather keep my Yaris...

This is the issue - The ownership experience of an EV *has* to be better than that of an ICE if they expect to command that kind of a premium and convince people to get them but, aside from very specific cases, it just isn't yet. That said, one of those cases seems to be "having a gigantic SUV that is only driven short distances in a city" and oh boy people are really rolling with that one down here!   

But hopefully these new fancy batteries will be less vaporware than fusion has been - When that happens it should start a tipping point...

I must confess to be slightly bitter as I highly suspect what I want (A small car that has long range, and not what EV people call long range, but what diesel people call long range!) will likely be the last type of EV made, if at all...!

 Very good post - agree wholeheartedly. If BEV works for you then great but please stop preaching and telling everyone else it works for them ‘if only you adapt your lifestyle…’ Why should they? The current charging and range restrictions of EV’s do not meet the bandwidth of car use and needs in the UK. Full stop. Having a car capable of 30 minute super fast charging is of absolutely no damn use when such chargers are very few and very far between. And having EV’s that typically cost £25k’s or more is unattainable for most people when they can’t afford a £10k car. 

[Nick72]

12 hours ago, philip42h said:

Clearly ... 😉  🙂

AC (alternative current) is used for home chargers and some legacy slow public charge points. Such 'chargers' include the standard wall socket (2.3kW), the normal single phase home charger (7.4kW) and the three phase charger (22kW) amongst other intermediate powers. The bZ4X includes either a standard 6.6kW onboard charger or an optional 11kW onboard charger. In either case fully charging from a standard wall socket would take around 3 days. With a 7.4kW charger the 6.6kW onboard charger would take 12h45 to fully charge the car; with the 11kW onboard charger this is reduced to 11h30.

With a three phase supply and either an 11kW or 22kW external charger, a car equipped with the 11kW onboard charger would charge fully in 7h45.

The charge rate is limited to the lower capacity of the external charger and the onboard charger.

I guess that anyone who really wanted to charge the bZ4X within an eight-hour overnight window would want the three phase option with the 11kW onboard charger. For most of us, I suspect that the 6.6kW charger and single phase power would do just fine.

DC (direct current) is used at public charging stations and is available with outputs between 50kW and (currently) 350kW. The bZ4x is capable of taking on charge at a rate of 150kW. So with an external charger capable of delivering 150kW or more the car would go from 10% to 80% charge in 32 min. At a 100kW charging station this would rise to 39 min. And at a 50kW charging station it would extend to 70 min.

There are many, many legacy public charging points out there that are pretty much useless - i.e. anything less than 50kW - and I'd consider anything less than 100kW as a last resort. Fortunately, newer public charging stations tend to be greater than 150kW and I don't see stopping for half an hour in every three or four hours driving as too much of an imposition for switching to an EV ... provided, of course, that there is an available and working 150kW charger pretty much where I need one!

I e thing I didn't realise that my neighbour told me was that many of the fast DC chargers are wired in serial. He gave an example where his EV (not sure which one he was referring to because he had a model 3 then binned it for a Polestar 2 recently) was put on charge and he went into the services for 20 minutes, expecting on his return to have received enough charge for the rest of the way home. But alas another car had plugged into the next charger and that had halved the electrical current delivery. Kirchoff's law if you recall. So he had an unexpected extra 20 minutes wait and was late for the start of of his kids birthday party. Now that would hack me off.

I don't know how widespread this wiring practice is by the way but am sure that the limitations of available power supply from the substation or whatever will be a limiting factor in some instances.

[Cyker]

It's very common; I first found out about this when TeslaBjorn was complaining about it with Tesla Superchargers on his youtube channel.

There seems to be a lot of baggage like this in the EV world that you never had to deal with at a petrol station. Another one is if you use a highspeed charger and get yelled at by Taycan and Kia owners telling you to use the slow chargers!

 

[spicyhotone]

On 6/16/2022 at 11:00 PM, Cyker said:

It's very common; I first found out about this when TeslaBjorn was complaining about it with Tesla Superchargers on his youtube channel.

There seems to be a lot of baggage like this in the EV world that you never had to deal with at a petrol station. Another one is if you use a highspeed charger and get yelled at by Taycan and Kia owners telling you to use the slow chargers!

 

I've noticed some petrol pumps seem to reduce their flow rate when the pump on the other side of the "island" is also being used, so this is not completely true. Obviously, a lot less of an impact with a 2 minute fill being extended to 2 minutes 30 seconds though! As others have noted, this is because there's only a limited supply of power to these chargers (especially thinking of motorway services which are often out in the sticks). Until either the supply is upgraded (I suspect this will be too expensive to be worthwhile in many cases) or big Battery banks are installed (to even out the peaks in demand), this will probably be something EV owners will have to live with, and plan around.

[ernieb]

44 minutes ago, spicyhotone said:

I've noticed some petrol pumps seem to reduce their flow rate when the pump on the other side of the "island" is also being used, so this is not completely true. Obviously, a lot less of an impact with a 2 minute fill being extended to 2 minutes 30 seconds though! As others have noted, this is because there's only a limited supply of power to these chargers (especially thinking of motorway services which are often out in the sticks). Until either the supply is upgraded (I suspect this will be too expensive to be worthwhile in many cases) or big battery banks are installed (to even out the peaks in demand), this will probably be something EV owners will have to live with, and plan around.

Planning around topping up the EV is something that maybe a younger generation or coffee lover might be OK with but for many switching to that mode of trip planning would be a big step. I’m just so used to having tank range that will get me to most places in the UK without stopping or only a when I choose to it, having to constantly monitor the Battery level would be a massive mental turn around.

People with EV’s seem to have to plan longer trips with meticulous care not just for a target charge station but back ups if that is not available or being used.

Having looked at a few Tesla 120kW super charging stations it must be a very expensive business as not only are the customer stations required but a small sub station to supply them. They seem to be configured to get pretty near the maximum power for each car attached.

[Roger_N]

1 hour ago, ernieb said:

Having looked at a few Tesla 120kW super charging stations it must be a very expensive business as not only are the customer stations required but a small sub station to supply them. They seem to be configured to get pretty near the maximum power for each car attached.

Tesla also make the Battery packs to store the electricity and I would expect most sites have solar panels arrays topping them up.

The local Porsche dealer has 8 150KW charging points and I think they use solar to keep costs down.

[Cyker]

TBH it's more for show than practical use - the power they get from solar panels is a drop in the proverbial bucket compared to the power the chargers need. I'd guess maybe 20-30kW if they use good panels and are able to put up a lot of them (A typical roof solar is about 4kW).

The chargers would need over a megawatt if they're all being used - That's 2 orders of magnitude difference!

10 hours ago, spicyhotone said:

I've noticed some petrol pumps seem to reduce their flow rate when the pump on the other side of the "island" is also being used, so this is not completely true.

I must admit I've never come across this before! I've had slow petrol pumps, but have never experienced the flow rate going down or up depending on the person on the other side. TBH I don't see how it could, as the metering system is part of the pump mechanism and it's impossible for it to be shared between two different pumps because you'd end up paying for each-other's fuel!!

But even if it's true, it's would be a very rare and unusual occasion, whereas dual-chargers loosing half their charge rate when both are in use is the standard setup for DC chargers.

It's not a power supply problem as such - It's a cost saving thing; Twin-chargers can share a substation (Or whatever those stalls are called) which significantly reduces the cost of deployment.

It would be entirely possible to have one substation thing per charger; They just don't do it for cost (and I guess demand) reasons, but this may change in the future.

 

[nlee]

21 minutes ago, Cyker said:

I must admit I've never come across this before! I've had slow petrol pumps, but have never experienced the flow rate going down or up depending on the person on the other side. TBH I don't see how it could, as the metering system is part of the pump mechanism and it's impossible for it to be shared between two different pumps because you'd end up paying for each-other's fuel!!

I'd have to say this is quite common in filling stations I use. Not sure if it shares the pump or the power supply to the pump but it has no impact on cost as this comes from an online calibrated flowmeter on the pump discharge side to the individual hose and nozzle.

[ernieb]

Agree with the lowered flow rate when another car uses the opposite pump.  I suppose the measured flow rate is in each arm of hose?

[Roger_N]

One pipe suppling the 2 sided pump, both sides taking fuel will almost certainly drop the flow rate.

[philip42h]

... and if that means that a fill-up takes two minutes rather than one, who really cares? 😉

But if an EV charging station is advertised at 100kW, say, then that is what it should deliver. If that 100kW charging station can only deliver 50kW to each of two vehicles connected concurrently, then it should be advertised as a 50kW charging station so the EV drivers can plan realistically. And if they then get a proportion of their charge time at 100kW so much the better ...

I can't help thinking that advertising standards should apply. It feels a bit like the old up to 20Mbps ADSL broadband speeds - I paid for "up to 20" but actually got 1 (and a bit on a good day). These days we have a "minimum service guarantee" and that should apply to EV chargers as well.

[Cyker]

The problem is they will just blame the car; It's very common for e.g. a 50kW charger to deliver less than its rated rate - Sometimes this is because the charger can't actually deliver 50kW, but sometimes it *is* because of the car, as the Battery can only get maximum charge speed around the middle; At the top and bottom end it slows down a lot.

Just because that is a thing, gives them carte blanche to blame it for slow charging speeds.

That's why when evangelists and manufacturers want to show off how fast their car can charge, they only quote to 80%, as the last 20% can take almost as long as the previous 80%!

It's also why I ignore the quoted ranges, as if you're on e.g. a road trip you will never get the maximum range from a charger en-route because, unless you're actually staying there e.g. overnight, there's no way you'd be able to charge to 100% without doubling or even tripling your journey time.

There are a lot of good reasons to only charge to 80% - It's faster and also damages the Battery less, but I don't like that they try to have their cake and eat it, so to speak, by quoting 100% charge ranges but 80% charging speeds.

[ernieb]

Most chargers will taper the charge above 80% as this is outside the sweet spot for the Battery.  The taper will be designed to reduce the charge current from 80% towards the 100%.

[Nick72]

12 hours ago, philip42h said:

... and if that means that a fill-up takes two minutes rather than one, who really cares? 😉

But if an EV charging station is advertised at 100kW, say, then that is what it should deliver. If that 100kW charging station can only deliver 50kW to each of two vehicles connected concurrently, then it should be advertised as a 50kW charging station so the EV drivers can plan realistically. And if they then get a proportion of their charge time at 100kW so much the better ...

I can't help thinking that advertising standards should apply. It feels a bit like the old up to 20Mbps ADSL broadband speeds - I paid for "up to 20" but actually got 1 (and a bit on a good day). These days we have a "minimum service guarantee" and that should apply to EV chargers as well.

This is the thing. If you thought the charge up was going to take 30 minutes but it takes an hour because someone else plugged their car in after you then that's a problem. 1 min Vs 2 min, who cares as you say. 5 minutes Vs 10 minutes is not a major issue either. It's the absolute time issue. Anything beyond a 30 minute stop for me is a problem and currently the chances of it being under that are very slim given quite often the chargers are either broken, in use, or slow chargers. I could cope if the EV range was 370 miles (read as 260 to 290 in winter on the motorway) since I can get a frequent long trip done there and back for that. Polestar 3 looking promising but we'll see what the YouTubers test results show and feedback on the forum from real owners also say. Won't see one of those for a year or two however.

[nlee]

My charging port door has now dropped to the point where I need to lift it to be able to close it. I have to say I'm not surprised, it just seems so weak for the almost daily use it gets. Can't see it being urgent so may just get it looked at when it goes for the first service in 1-2 months. Seems like it could become a common fault.

[HSDish]

55 minutes ago, nlee said:

My charging port door has now dropped to the point where I need to lift it to be able to close it. I have to say I'm not surprised, it just seems so weak for the almost daily use it gets. Can't see it being urgent so may just get it looked at when it goes for the first service in 1-2 months. Seems like it could become a common fault.

Our charging port door are qute flappy to. I´ll point out that at our next service.

Probably within a month (driven 12068 km since we bought the car 28 feb. 2022)

[Hayzee]

2 hours ago, nlee said:

My charging port door has now dropped to the point where I need to lift it to be able to close it. I have to say I'm not surprised, it just seems so weak for the almost daily use it gets. Can't see it being urgent so may just get it looked at when it goes for the first service in 1-2 months. Seems like it could become a common fault.

Completely agree.....just waiting for mine to do the same....terrified a gust of wind might rip it off whilst charging....going to find a practical way of strapping it to the charging cable when plugged in.

[Lawnmowerman]

3 hours ago, nlee said:

My charging port door has now dropped to the point where I need to lift it to be able to close it. I have to say I'm not surprised, it just seems so weak for the almost daily use it gets. Can't see it being urgent so may just get it looked at when it goes for the first service in 1-2 months. Seems like it could become a common fault.

The dealer reckons it will take a month to get the part - you might want to get it ordered sooner rather than later. There have been a few mentioning it on another forum.

[ernieb]

4 hours ago, Hayzee said:

Completely agree.....just waiting for mine to do the same....terrified a gust of wind might rip it off whilst charging....going to find a practical way of strapping it to the charging cable when plugged in.

One advantage of having an all weather cover over the port/cable/door when charging is in progress.

[Hayzee]

25 minutes ago, ernieb said:

One advantage of having an all weather cover over the port/cable/door when charging is in progress.

Ernie can you show your customized design again please?

[HSDish]

27 minutes ago, ernieb said:

One advantage of having an all weather cover over the port/cable/door when charging is in progress.

Where do You find those?

 

[ernieb]

I bought the largest one I could fine and inset an extra piece that I cut from a nylon/rubberised bag I had from when I was caravanning.

The gap around the cable is smaller in normal use, I’ve been using it for some time and there is no damage or marks on the paint work.

This is the original.
 

[ernieb]

My modified cover in the snow.

[ernieb]

Closer view of the inserted piece.

[Hayzee]

Ernie thanks....Is it a magnetic attachment to the car body, and how big was the original item you bought?