T27 manual gearbox issue

[Cessna]

I have a 2015 T27 1.8 petrol with a manual gearbox, that has covered around 50000 miles. When the car is properly cold (e.g. when left overnight on a cool night) it is impossible to shift into first gear when crawling for a couple of minutes after starting off. This can happen when approaching a give way where I can then see it is clear to pull away without needing to come to a complete stop, and therefore want to shift to first from third or fourth so that I can pull out. It shifts into first just fine from a standstill, and will shift into first while crawling a minute or two after starting off, when things have warmed up. The clutch was changed by a Toyota dealer a few months ago, and I don't recall it happening before then (but can't say for sure). I have taken it back to the Totota dealer and explained the situation, but the technician said he could not replicate the problem (I dropped it off the day before and explained it only happens when fully cold). He also said I should not be shifting in to first while moving! They have offered to check it again, with me showing them the issue, which I will probably do. They also said a gearbox oil change might fix it, but they could not guarantee it, which is understandable. Has anybody else experienced anything similar?

[Konrad C]

I have not had your problem, but think the clutch hydraulic system needs bleeding and checked for leaks. Let's hope it is just needs a quick bleed, because if the concentric slave is leaking, it is a transmission out job! 
When you first get in the car, pump the clutch a few times before starting. Then after starting, select gear to move the car. If the gear goes in easily, then do the bleeding to see if it improves the situation.  

[Cessna]

Thanks Konrad. I will try pumping the pedal before the next start from cold. The trouble is (and I might not have made this clear), it shifts into first just fine when the car is stationary - it is only when crawling forward that it won't shift down to first, and then only within a minute or so of starting off. So I can get it into first just fine after starting, but when I get to the give-way at the end of my road, unless I come to a complete stop I cannot shift down from third or fourth into first.

[jimtaxi]

Sounds like a classic case of poor installation of the clutch unit by the dealer.Only had a clutch fitted by a dealer once and it was a Mk 1 Cavalier. Same symptoms as you describe,eventually we  took out gearbox and discovered that that clutch pressure plate had been damaged during installation by some of the fingers being bent so when the clutch was supposed to be disengaged the lack of pressure from the damaged fingers caused drag which is I think undoubtedly whats wrong with this car. Unfortunately poor expertise is now rampant in garages up and down the UK.   

[2009joe]

I find my 2014 now and when I bought it with 38k on it when going down a slow lane or rough road I slow down and put it into 1st gear I notice it's not as smooth going into 1st going down the gears as my last VW group car. It's not 2 say I'm flying down the gears as I'm not 

[Konrad C]

On 6/8/2022 at 7:47 PM, Cessna said:

Thanks Konrad. I will try pumping the pedal before the next start from cold. The trouble is (and I might not have made this clear), it shifts into first just fine when the car is stationary - it is only when crawling forward that it won't shift down to first, and then only within a minute or so of starting off. So I can get it into first just fine after starting, but when I get to the give-way at the end of my road, unless I come to a complete stop I cannot shift down from third or fourth into first.

The one thing that comes to mind, is you changing down to first while the car is moving. I tend to change down to second gear and the car pulls cleanly without me needing to slip the clutch or even select first. There might be the odd occasion where I might select first while rolling, but don't think about it. My clutch was changed back in 2017 by a and guy who does clutches, and apart from a couple of missing clips the odd bolt and the gear position sensor not securely connected, the installation was mainly fine to date. It was a rushed. I had to sort the problems and replace and missing or broken clips. I also did diagnostic via a friend to fix the EPB caused by the gear position sensor connector. If I could do the clutch myself, I would do it. I also watch a guy on YouTube who is a mobile clutch mechanic. 
Nick, you know your car, so if something has changed after the clutch replacement, it could be a case of adjusting or finding out what was done. The gearbox oil should be of the correct grade. You could have a faulty clutch part!  

[Konrad C]

This morning, I drove my car noted the following. Clutch is light as ever. I selected first gear without issue and started driving. As I approached the end of my road, I selected first gear while still rolling. It went in but not as smooth as at standstill. This is less than a minute after starting the car. There was no crunching. I cannot remember selecting first gear with the car rolling and full warmed up. Gears went in smoothly every other time. I do remembering after having the clutch replaced the biting point is lower and a little sharper. The fact the mechanics cannot replicate your issue may down to driving style and the transmission is warmed up. Be free to reply to my feedback. 
Now to get some cycling in.  

[JiiN]

I've noticed that every car brand have same problem to get first gear smoothly when car is rolling. Even brand new ones too. I think that it is normal but if it needs much effort to get, then I would start to check why.

Worst have been brand new Ford Transit. Two different brand new Transit had same problem wich I drove daily at job at 2008. It was almost impossible to get first gear if car was rolling even a little bit.

[Cyker]

Same, never been able to put a car into first at anything above geriatric walking speed...

[Cessna]

On 6/8/2022 at 9:32 PM, jimtaxi said:

Sounds like a classic case of poor installation of the clutch unit by the dealer.Only had a clutch fitted by a dealer once and it was a Mk 1 Cavalier. Same symptoms as you describe,eventually we  took out gearbox and discovered that that clutch pressure plate had been damaged during installation by some of the fingers being bent so when the clutch was supposed to be disengaged the lack of pressure from the damaged fingers caused drag which is I think undoubtedly whats wrong with this car. Unfortunately poor expertise is now rampant in garages up and down the UK.   

Thanks for the reply. I had feared it would be something like this. The dealer is still receptive to checking it, this time with me driving to show them the issue. I will probably wait until the autumn when the nights are cooler (on hot mornings now in June the problem doesn't always materialise). It will mean leaving the car with them the afternoon before, and then getting back to the dealer early the following morning to show them the issue after the car has fully cooled overnight. Which is a bit of a faff, but worth it if they can then fix it.

[Cessna]

23 hours ago, Konrad C said:

This morning, I drove my car noted the following. Clutch is light as ever. I selected first gear without issue and started driving. As I approached the end of my road, I selected first gear while still rolling. It went in but not as smooth as at standstill. This is less than a minute after starting the car. There was no crunching. I cannot remember selecting first gear with the car rolling and full warmed up. Gears went in smoothly every other time. I do remembering after having the clutch replaced the biting point is lower and a little sharper. The fact the mechanics cannot replicate your issue may down to driving style and the transmission is warmed up. Be free to reply to my feedback. 
Now to get some cycling in.  

Thanks Konrad. The gearbox is absolutely great apart from this (minor) issue - lovely smooth shifts. The difference between yours and mine is that shift down to first at the end of the road is just not possible for me when cold - too much resistance to get it in at all (although I'm not trying *really* hard - don't want to break anything).

After the clutch change I found the biting point was lower and a little sharper too, and also that the force needed to depress the clutch was lower as well.

I suppose I could live with it if I have to; it only happens when the car is fully cold and it's not that often I want to shift down to first when crawling. But the problem wasn't there before, and I don't like having to slip the clutch in second to pull away from a crawl when I know I should be able to use first. We'll see later in the year when it's cooler and I take it back.