Electricity Cost Vs Petrol Cost for PHEV

[Bill65]

Bear in mind that many of the public EV chargers are still free or heavily subsidised by the local council, at least up here in Scotland.  For the last month I have paid £12 for 184.6kWh of electricity which at 3 miles per kWh is around 550 miles. Won't get far on £12 of petrol nowadays.

ChargePlace Scotland needs to update their "petrol equivalent" metrics in their app from last year's values 😉

[Hornet3D]

Snag is, with energy prices rocketing it really is a case of all bets are off for the foreseeable future.   It could well be that the electric cars will always be cheaper to run than petrol but really that is irrelevant in that with the energy price caps going through the roof running an electric car is going to get a lot more expensive.

[Composite Guru]

1 hour ago, Hornet3D said:

Snag is, with energy prices rocketing it really is a case of all bets are off for the foreseeable future.   It could well be that the electric cars will always be cheaper to run than petrol but really that is irrelevant in that with the energy price caps going through the roof running an electric car is going to get a lot more expensive.

Exactly. Imagine buying a Tesla for £700 a month and the electric price go through the roof. 
Mugged. 😄

[Cyker]

It's like that with any modern car tho' - Even my Mk4 and its ridiculous mpg is never going to make back its money compared to my old Mk1 Yaris (KHAAAAN!)

The only true way to save money is bangernomics, as someone said!  

 

[Rhymes with Paris]

2 minutes ago, Cyker said:

It's like that with any modern car tho' - Even my Mk4 and its ridiculous mpg is never going to make back its money compared to my old Mk1 Yaris (KHAAAAN!)

The only true way to save money is bangernomics, as someone said!  

 

Yep,buy an old Toyota or Honda that's been looked after for a few hundred, change the oil regularly, yes you will use more fuel, but no problems with starship electronics and have your arm off dealers.

 

[IanML]

That's fine until the banger develops a problem which will cost more than it's worth to fix - "Buy cheap, buy twice".

[Mike2222]

9 hours ago, IanML said:

That's fine until the banger develops a problem which will cost more than it's worth to fix

Yeah, but then you're doing bangernomics wrong.

9 hours ago, IanML said:

"Buy cheap, buy twice".

This is the point. Idea is that new/new-ish car will cost you maybe a few thousand a year on depreciation alone, but you're expecting it to be worth something when you come to move it on. If you buy something for a few hundred, but expect to run it into the ground, even if it only lasts a year and you have to buy another one for similar money, you'll still have spent less than the new/new-ish option. 

 

The risk to accept is that you might be stranded on the side of the road in the middle of winter, so not a great idea for families or those of nervous dispositions!

[spicyhotone]

Created a little spreadsheet to illustrate this.

2nd column is the cost of petrol/L 3rd column is cost of electriciy/kwH.
Look for how much you're paying/kwH for electricity, and the 2nd column of the same row will give you the equivalent price/L of petrol.

This is based on 45mpg and 3m/kwH
For petrol price of ~£1.90/L it shows the equivalent electricity price is ~£0.60/kwH. So if you're paying less than this, it's more cost effective in EV mode.

[NASY]

Am I missing something here? I thought we were being encouraged to save the planet by using electric cars, not saving money. I do see the long term cost of electricity coming down once it is no longer pegged to gas, we have a huge amount of wind power which once we sort out some more storage should mostly do the trick. I am just talking about Scotland here of course, England obviously has different challenges. 

[spicyhotone]

Writing that spreadsheet got me thinking, what if I could run my car not only off my household's electricity supply, but the natural gas. Gas is currently much cheaper per kwH than electricity (roughly about 5 times cheaper on my current contract, but not sure how true that is on current prices as I'm in a fix from before the mad increases started). Potentially, it could be cheaper to run the car of LNG. Of course, there's the cost of the conversion of the car to run on LNG (but I think the RAV4 non-turbocharged engine could be well suited!), the cost of the kit to liquify NG (which is probably not even practical/safe on a domestic setting!), and the loss of space in the car from the extra storage tank required.

[Nick72]

On 7/24/2022 at 10:26 AM, philip42h said:

This has all seemed a bit inevitable to me - I have never believed that an EV would be more economical to run in the longer term and special EV tariffs are just an inducement to encourage folk to switch that won't last.

However, at current fuel prices of around £2 a litre the RAV4 will cost around 20p per mile to run (HEV or PHEV).

At 3 miles per kWh (approximately) and 27p per kWh the PHEV will come in at around 9p per mile to run. PHEVies can argue about exactly how efficient their cars are ... 😉 Even when the cost rises to 45p per kWh that's still only 15p per mile as an EV as opposed to 20p per mile as a hybrid. And you get 300 bhp and rocket-ship performance (so quit complaining 😁)

Electricity would need to rise to around 60p per kWh to achieve parity with petrol - and that assumes that petrol remains where it is - and if that were to happen folk would have quite a lot more to worry about rather than just the cost of motoring ...

 

I'm getting 3.6 miles per kWhr at the moment 😉

[Parts-King]

29 minutes ago, spicyhotone said:

Gas is currently much cheaper per kwH than electricity (roughly about 5 times cheaper on my current contract, 

It is at the moment, Electricity is now being generated much cleaner from renewables than it did in the past. It is only a matter of time before they flip the "green taxes" to gas to stop us all using gas and moving to electricity, personally I don't think left and right hands know what they are doing but that's another story 

[nlee]

Most of the discussion is based on standard tariffs. EV tariffs may be an incentive at the moment (I currently pay 5p/kWh = 1.5p/mile), and it may be so that they will eventually phase out. However, I believe time of use tariffs will gain more traction in future. With more demand on the grid, there will always need to be an incentive to load shift to off peak and the only real way to achieve it is through cheaper off peak pricing. It's still a fact that there is excess electricity at some times that the grid want people to use. It's only a few weeks ago that one supplier was paying users to use electricity.

[Parts-King]

1 minute ago, nlee said:

Most of the discussion is based on standard tariffs. EV tariffs may be an incentive at the moment (I currently pay 5p/kWh = 1.5p/mile), and it may be so that they will eventually phase out. However, I believe time of use tariffs will gain more traction in future. With more demand on the grid, there will always need to be an incentive to load shift to off peak and the only real way to achieve it is through cheaper off peak pricing. It's still a fact that there is excess electricity at some times that the grid want people to use. It's only a few weeks ago that one supplier was paying users to use electricity.

and with smart meters that is exactly what will happen, there will be no choice in the matter, no problem if the tariff is cheap but who knows what the future holds 

[Nick72]

On 7/24/2022 at 8:36 AM, adamtoonarmy said:

By my reckoning, a 30% rise in energy prices this autumn and a further 30% in early 2023 (this is quite conservative estimate by according to some) will see my cheapest running option to be HV mode (assuming fuel prices stay where they are now and they are falling at the minute)

Im on a standard tariff with British Gas at 27p per KW/h with no option for an EV rate. I can switch to another company and get an EV rate though but this puts my overall bill up by £thousands so obviously Im not doing that.

As more people end up on standard electricity tariffs could we end up in a position where we are all choosing to run around using petrol instead of electricity as its cheaper?

If so then how bonkers is that......

 

It would be hard to see that happening.

Electricity cost per mile is always going to be cheaper than petrol cost per mile. As others have said, the two are intimately tied together, and when they aren't is the time when electricity generation is from a whole host of non fossil fuel sources and effectively becomes almost free. We are probably 15 to 20 years off that position but it is coming!

I get 3 miles per kWhr in winter, 3.6 per kWhr at the moment on the PHEV. For me it works out about 4 times cheaper. I could do it better but there's not a lot of point. I can't see cost per litre of petrol falling to 46p a litre. Or electricity cost increasing by a factor of 4.

Interestingly in many states in the USA the difference between petrol and electricity cost per mile is much closer because petrol is so cheap. I think its a factor of 2 to 3 better in favour of electric.

One thing to note is that for some people they didn't convert to PHEV or BEV because of the energy running costs. The high initial outlay would require very high mileage in EV mode to recoup the initial investment delta versus say a standard petrol or diesel car. They converted like me because of one or more of the following reasons... I have the R4 PHEV...

1. Environment. Doing most of your miles in EV mode and using a sustainable energy supplier. And, not emitting various poisons and particulates around town (major cause of childhood chronic conditions).

2. Government tax incentives. I got a third off the cost in effect given the low BiK tax on company cars vs what tax I would have paid on my wages (40+% Vs 6%). So a lot of car for not a lot.

3. I like driving in electric. Smooth, quiet, instant acceleration.

4. Immense power on the PHEV. Averaging 5.5s 0 to 60mph. Instant power at any speed. Faster than a Supra 50 to 70mph I believe.

5. As well as a great Battery range that's largely insensitive to temperature and speed versus other PHEVs. 40 to 45 miles in winter. 48 to 56 miles in summer. Without really trying. If you try really hard you can get just over 60. Just at the moment I'm seeing 3.6 miles per kWhr according to the MID.

 

So not really one factor but many.

The energy running costs are really just a bit of a bonus. I only do about 6k miles a year at the moment. Most of that is EV mode and most of the long journeys are business trips where my fuel costs are compensated at a rate that equates to a 2.5 litre petrol car. Hence always up on that. I've probably saving (including making) 700 quid a year Vs a soley petrol car. If I had paid full price for the PHEV rather than getting a third off (which puts it into the price bracket of regular ICE versions) the delta outlay wouldn't pay for itself for about 25 years. Makes no sense in my case as an argument. But the earlier points do so the 700 a year benefit is now just various garbage my other half wants to rearrange the house with.

 

 

 

 

[philip42h]

1 hour ago, Nick72 said:

I'm getting 3.6 miles per kWhr at the moment 😉

Which equates to an average (summer time?) EV range of around 45.6 miles? (18.1 kWh x 70% x 3.6 miles). That's pretty much what it says on the tin. 🙂

Edit: and having just read your second post ... an average 52 mile EV range at 3.6 miles per kWh would consume 14.44 kWh - which is around 80% of your 18.1 kWh traction Battery. That would put the reserve down to 20% which is perfectly plausible but contrary to what other PHEVies have claimed.

[ernieb]

Mine is similar to Nick’s, but overall since I bought the car the average is 3.3 miles/kWh. Overall I think this is a pretty good figure.

[roadster-rav]

My PHEV ( Hyundai not Toyota) is about 25% cheaper to run on its Battery than in hybrid mode ( which barely depletes the Battery even if it is charged). But not every journey is within the range of Battery only. Bad news - lets not forget that petrol prices have a very large chunk of additional taxation without which the difference would be negligible. As fuel tax revenues diminish the tax will have to come from somewhere else so we will all end up paying more!

[Hornet3D]

10 hours ago, Mike2222 said:

Yeah, but then you're doing bangernomics wrong.

This is the point. Idea is that new/new-ish car will cost you maybe a few thousand a year on depreciation alone, but you're expecting it to be worth something when you come to move it on. If you buy something for a few hundred, but expect to run it into the ground, even if it only lasts a year and you have to buy another one for similar money, you'll still have spent less than the new/new-ish option. 

 

The risk to accept is that you might be stranded on the side of the road in the middle of winter, so not a great idea for families or those of nervous dispositions!

I have certainly deployed bangernomics a few times in my life but now I am of advanced years it is your final point that means it will remain in my past.  I know there is no guarantee you will not break down in any car but the risk is higher with an old banger and I am far too old to be stranded in any weather if I can avoid it or at least reduce the odds. 

[Hornet3D]

8 hours ago, Parts-King said:

It is at the moment, Electricity is now being generated much cleaner from renewables than it did in the past. It is only a matter of time before they flip the "green taxes" to gas to stop us all using gas and moving to electricity, personally I don't think left and right hands know what they are doing but that's another story 

In many cases the same people and groups that are now pushing electric cars were the same people and groups that was telling us diesel was so much more environmentally friendly than petrol.

[Hornet3D]

1 hour ago, roadster-rav said:

My PHEV ( Hyundai not Toyota) is about 25% cheaper to run on its battery than in hybrid mode ( which barely depletes the battery even if it is charged). But not every journey is within the range of battery only. Bad news - lets not forget that petrol prices have a very large chunk of additional taxation without which the difference would be negligible. As fuel tax revenues diminish the tax will have to come from somewhere else so we will all end up paying more!

Let's be really honest here, it does not really matter what power you use in your car we will all pay thorough the nose because we are motorists.

[Hornet3D]

9 hours ago, NASY said:

Am I missing something here? I thought we were being encouraged to save the planet by using electric cars, not saving money. I do see the long term cost of electricity coming down once it is no longer pegged to gas, we have a huge amount of wind power which once we sort out some more storage should mostly do the trick. I am just talking about Scotland here of course, England obviously has different challenges. 

Good point but if you move the focus to saving the planet you need to factor in what damage will be caused when all these car batteries come to the end of their natural life.   In that respect the industry is in the very early stages of dealing with the problem of worn out batteries.  You also need to factor in the damage to the planet from manufacturing all the chargers and cables that are needed for electric cars.  I am not saying that the move to electric cars should not happen, I would have one in a flash if I could afford one, I am just saying it is not as black and white as it would first seem.  

Then of course there is the other question how long will it be before they ban all electric cars and move to hydrogen.

[nlee]

Manufacturing regulations require EV batteries must be at least 50% recyclable. Thankfully that's fairly easy to achieve. Currently 95% of an EV Battery can be reused/recycled but it's not currently commercially attractive to get to that level so there is more work to be done.

[AJones]

42 minutes ago, Hornet3D said:

Good point but if you move the focus to saving the planet you need to factor in what damage will be caused when all these car batteries come to the end of their natural life.   In that respect the industry is in the very early stages of dealing with the problem of worn out batteries.  You also need to factor in the damage to the planet from manufacturing all the chargers and cables that are needed for electric cars.  

For the last 100 years every car has been fitted with a lead-acid Battery and typically goes through several in its lifetime, they are filled with a mix of neurotoxic heavy metals and sulphuric acid. Nobody worries about those, or the batteries in hybrids because they are recycled, just as the recycling capacity is being created for lithium ion batteries. 

Chargers and charging cables are simple electrical equipment, no different from other electric equipment in the home or commercial premises. Similar materials, similar recyclability, nothing to worry about. Unless you worry about the impact of buying a home appliance or an extension cable, what is there go be concerned about?

Compared to the risks from climate change, the problems from batteries and the chargers are pretty trivial.

[Nick72]

9 hours ago, philip42h said:

Which equates to an average (summer time?) EV range of around 45.6 miles? (18.1 kWh x 70% x 3.6 miles). That's pretty much what it says on the tin. 🙂

Edit: and having just read your second post ... an average 52 mile EV range at 3.6 miles per kWh would consume 14.44 kWh - which is around 80% of your 18.1 kWh traction battery. That would put the reserve down to 20% which is perfectly plausible but contrary to what other PHEVies have claimed.

Not really. There's only about 14.8kWhr of Battery accessible of the 18.  So it's a lot higher than what's stated on the tin.

edit... It might be 14.4 accessible. Somewhere between that and 14.8. There's a bottom end and a top end you can't access. Bottom end for hybrid mode and top end to prevent overcharge problems. This matches your calc almost exactly and Ernie's experience with an overall 3.3 miles per kWhr average (which is between my winter and summer values quoted). So spot on really and slightly better than what it says on the tin on average. Bear in mind that I drive like closer to batman than Driving Miss Daisy and make very little effort on the eco driving front. If I did then there's a few more miles to add on average. 😉

Edited July 25, 2022 by Nick72
Clarification